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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i doubt the kv 55 mummy is crown prince thutmose. the mummy is obviously a reburial, most likely from amarna. i find it hard to believe that akhenaten would disinter his brother and move him to amarna. which is the only way that body could end up in kv 55. since the reburial is from amarna royalty at least known to have been buried at amarna, i find it hard to believe someone not buried there would end up in the tomb. akhenaten never disinterred amenhotep III, so it seems unusual to disinter a brother who was most likely buried at memphis?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuthmosis IV has been accounted for, so he's out.

For as far as the mummy identified as Amenhotep III goes, I just put together a table of just some of the measurements obtained by GE Smith.
These are from studies dating back to 1912.

http://sites.google.com/site/historyofancientegypt/home/mummy-measurements

I have never been too sure about how much we can gather from these types of measurements, but it seems to me that Amenhotep III's mummy fits in quite nicely with those of his immediate ancestors.

KV 55 has skull measurements closer to the mummy of the young boy and young lady from KV35.

If Amenhotep III and Tiye's mummy are accurately identified, then KV 55 has skull measurements somewhat different from both.
Variance in skull measurements is to be expected, but the cranial index of Amenhotep III and Tiye is several percentage points off.
That would have me expect that KV 55, and the two younger mummies from KV35 coould be closely related but should be at least a generation away from Amenhotep and Tiye? (I'm asking this more than stating this, because I don't quite know how to interpret the data and if it would even support such claims.)

But that could mean that the more brachycephalic skulls we see in KV55 and KV35 point to a wife of non-royal origin whom they inherited these traits from?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also, tut was around 9 at accession, give or take a few years from the death of akhenaten to his accession and he would have been born around year 10 of akhenaten. for tut to be the son of amenhotep III, there would have to be a lengthy co regency with akhenaten. and he would not be able to be tiye's son, as she would have been roughly 50. which would mean akhenaten was co regent for around 10 years, and i havnt heard of any evidence of amenhotep III being around that long. if there was a co regency, it would have been less than 5 years. which is still too late for amenhotep III to have fathered tutankhamun. he could have fathered smenkhare, but not tutankhamun. smenkhare was born roughly year 35/6, making him 2 or 3 when akhenaten came to the throne. meaning he was 12 or 13 at tut's birth.
so akhenaten came to the throne around 18? so he could have fathered smenkhare before his father died, then had the six daughters with nefertiti and tutankhamun.

the mummy in kv 55 is said to be early 20's more often than it is claimed to be older. akhenaten would have been at least mid 30's, which is a decade older than the mummy in kv 55 at death. the kv 55 mummy is known to be a father or brother of tut, and as akhenaten is too old, the mummy is tut's brother, unless smenkhare is his father, but then who is his mother? also smenkhare is only 12/3 at tut's birth, not unheard of for a father his age in ancient egypt, but unlikely.
we dont have a lot of evidence, but the most sense is akhenaten is his father, with either kiya or nefertiti his mother. which makes ankhsenamun variously his sister, aunt or cousin depending on who the father is.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should be a bit more precise. KV 55's skull (and I think Tut's) are brachycephalic (cranial index >81), the KV35 mummies (the two younger ones) are at the top end of mesocephalic (cranial index between 76 and 81)

Funny enough, you have to go back to Ahmose and his sister-wife Ahmose Nefertari to find brachycephalic skulls.
It is possible they inherited this trait from their mother, because if Seqenenre is their father, they didn't get it from him.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i doubt the kv 55 mummy is crown prince thutmose. <snip> it seems unusual to disinter a brother who was most likely buried at memphis?


Excellent point. Had not thought of that, but it seems strange - like you said - to move Prince Tuthmosis from Saqqara.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Excellent point. Had not thought of that, but it seems strange - like you said - to move Prince Tuthmosis from Saqqara.


he was a priest of ptah wasn't he? so he would be more likely interred at memphis or saqqara rather than thebes, unless amenhotep III wanted him interred with the rest of the family. but he didnt make arrangements in his own tomb, like he did for tiye and sitamun. and there is so far no evidence of a burial in the valley of the kings. so i think the most likely spot is memphis.

likewise, there is no evidence akhenaten disinterring any members of his family for a reburial at amarna. the only evidence of reburial is members of the royal family known to have been interred at amarna, being reburied in kv 55.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks thus far for all the information. the Armana period certainly has a way of confusing matters somewhat , not that this is unexpected.

I had never thought of Smenkhare as Tutankhamuns possible brother, or even son, but what i do like are the logical explanations you are giving me on the issues with the Egyptian family trees.

Segereh, kylejustin and Anneke, thanks for the links - they will prove very helpful to me.

The treatment of royal mummies over the years is a subject in itself- the hand of Djer from Dynasty being one. I now wonder how many royal mummies were caught up in the early trend of using mummies for fuel and medicine (discussed elsewhere on this site). Also if any of them are currently in private collections, slowly crumbling and maybe never to be seen again... Crying or Very sad
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Tuthmosis IV has been accounted for, so he's out.

For as far as the mummy identified as Amenhotep III goes, I just put together a table of just some of the measurements obtained by GE Smith.
These are from studies dating back to 1912.

http://sites.google.com/site/historyofancientegypt/home/mummy-measurements

I have never been too sure about how much we can gather from these types of measurements, but it seems to me that Amenhotep III's mummy fits in quite nicely with those of his immediate ancestors.

KV 55 has skull measurements closer to the mummy of the young boy and young lady from KV35.

If Amenhotep III and Tiye's mummy are accurately identified, then KV 55 has skull measurements somewhat different from both.
Variance in skull measurements is to be expected, but the cranial index of Amenhotep III and Tiye is several percentage points off.
That would have me expect that KV 55, and the two younger mummies from KV35 coould be closely related but should be at least a generation away from Amenhotep and Tiye? (I'm asking this more than stating this, because I don't quite know how to interpret the data and if it would even support such claims.)

But that could mean that the more brachycephalic skulls we see in KV55 and KV35 point to a wife of non-royal origin whom they inherited these traits from?


Here's a royal mummy skull measurement study done by James Harris in the "lnternational Journal of Osteoarchaeology" published in 1991.

http://wysinger.homestead.com/harris_-_1991.pdf

Harris is one of the proponents of the "Mummy Musical Chairs" theory. So far he's been confirmed regarding the Thutmose I identification (or would it be disidentification).
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