Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Amarna: Nome Mechanics

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:33 am    Post subject: Amarna: Nome Mechanics Reply with quote

A quick couple of questions about the 'mechanics' re status of the nome when Amarna (indeed any capital) was in play. From what I have read (re Amarna) this relates to the 14th upper-egyptian nome which appears to have had Hathor as the principal nome deity

1. Is it correct to think of the capital (Amarna in this instance) as being kinda like the Vatican- enclosed by the Italian state, but recognized as an entirely independant 'entity'?

2. Akhenaton is understood to have claimed that his selection of Amarna was (in-part) due to the land having no claim upon it by any pre-existing deity. How does this relate to, or reconcile with, the Hathor connection which seems to have been in place prior to Amarna?

Thx
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think it means the land where he built amarna didnt have any connections to a deity. example, there were no temples, and the land didnt belong to a cult or priesthood. therefore there are no prior associations, it is 'virgin' territory.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
...there were no temples, and the land didnt belong to a cult or priesthood.

I understand there not being existing temple(s), buildings, etc... so, given that the principal noted nome deity was Hathor (in this case), did this then not extend to the entirity of the nome? - was the principal nome deity only recognized relative to where temples physically existed? where folks lived? the nome capital (qis)? where property (or agriculture?) was to be found? - or did Amarna 'belong' to no nome at the time?

The first part of the question... re the machanics. How did it work when the new capital moved-in? what happened to the, then current, nome-ruler's authority? - were Thebes, Amarna etc. considered outwith the jurisdiction of the nome? or did the capital usurp the authority of the nome? (and take-over the entire nome) or just create a new 'jurisdiction' within the nome?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i wouldnt read too much into the symbol of hathor being what represented the nome. the city was part of the nome, so technically hathor would be the symbol for amarna too. i doubt akhenaten would have changed it, because nomes existed for administrative purposes, so he may have had a political problem if he tried to change the system.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx
kylejustin wrote:
i wouldnt read too much into the symbol of hathor being what represented the nome. the city was part of the nome, so technically hathor would be the symbol for amarna too. i doubt akhenaten would have changed it, because nomes existed for administrative purposes, so he may have had a political problem if he tried to change the system.

I am not sure that it was Hathor (as a symbol) that represented the nome, from what I read the symbol representing the nome was the 'lower sycamore and viper'. As I understand it, Hathor was the principal deity (white-chapel-deity). I had interpreted this as being the main or principally adopted deity for the entirity of the specific nome, and dating back (as testified) to Senwosret I (latest)??

What I am trying to get a handle on is, the 'extent' or authority (loosely) of this deity within the nome- how the deity can pre-exist for the nome and how this can be reconciled with Akhenaten's claim that no gods existed or held claim to the area of Amarna. Was this because there was no physical construction, no agriculture, no people extant in the Amarna location, and that this may have been required for the deity to be perceive as holding claim?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to The Egyptians: an introduction By Robert Morkot
Amarna was part of the 15th nome, also known as the Hare nome.
The nome capital was Hermopolis, whose principal deity was Thoth.
(According to: A history of Egypt under the Pharaohs: derived entirely from the monuments ...‎ Heinrich Karl Brugsch, Henry Danby Seymour, Philip Smith)

But that doesn't change the main part of the question Very Happy

I think the country was divided up into nomes, so that Amarna really was part of that area.

So it I think from that it may be argued that Akhenaten's statements means that there was no prior claim on the land in the sense that there was no temple there. I get the impression there was absolutely nothing there before Akhetaten was constructed.

I'm not sure what would have happened to the nomarch of the Hare nome - if there was still such a person.

I thought about what they did wrt to Thebes when that was the capital. But I'm not sure who ruled the entire nome. Would that have been the governor of Thebes? This was a title held by the Vizier. Maybe the Vizier of Lower Egypt also became governor of the nome to which Amarna belonged? That would ensure that the capital really remained under the power of the King.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx.

Yes, 14th or 15th nome I dunno, I have read it posited both ways from various sources, the T'huti connection (15th nome) seems the more logical on various levels, there does not seem to be a whole bunch of definitive work in this direction. Does anyone understand the geology of Amarna? what I am getting at is, was the area formed as a result of any significant change (in short time period) in the course of the Nile?

anneke wrote:
I think the country was divided up into nomes, so that Amarna really was part of that area.


I understand this perspective but I am starting to see Amarna (or any capital for that matter, rightly or wrongly) as being more like DC, ie; as a 'federal' (National) 'district', and not being part of any nome. I don't know if this is right, but it 'feels' like it should be- from the evidence of boundary stellae. Akhenaten seems to have been very specific about the limits of his new capital
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group