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Kingmaker Bay
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:19 am    Post subject: Kingmaker Bay Reply with quote

Bare with me: long introduction coming up. Smile

In 1240 BCE, in roughly the 50th year of his reign, Ramses II erected a stela commemorating the 400th anniversary of the beginning of his dynasty with the reign of "Aa Pehti Set" ("The Powerful Seth"), one of the Hyksos kings who ruled immediately following a well attested one called Iakeb (Javob) Aarhu "Mer-Weser-Re". This "Aa Pehti Set" doesn't appear in the Turin Payrus kings list, but we've discussed a bit about this king and the stela before in http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=343&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0.

These Hyksos kings were Canaanites and there's been a lot of discussing about whether the Nort-Eastern Egyptian family Ramses II was offspring to wasn't Canaanite in origins as well. There's a lot to say for actually. It doesn't mean Ramses II was a Hebrew though and please don't drag the bible into this one... Some side-suggestions (you can't call it true evidence) are made in looking at how "fair" the complexion of Ramses II actually was, quite unlike his predecessors of the 18th dynasty (who I'm not calling ugly here). His First Chief Queen Nefertari is frequently shown in her tomb by the way with PINK skin, something that was unheard of before. But Nefertari's descent is quite unknown and even if she was a member of Ramses' family even before their marriage, it isn't conclusive evidence for foreign ancestry.

About this stela: it was erected by Sem-Priest Chaemwaset (the guy keeps popping up), the 4th crown-prince of Ramses II. Pierre Montet discovered this artefact in the early 1940's by the way, never mentioned that before. This stela was celebrating the king's First Jubilee in his 30th year. Chaem's older brothers had died before the 30th year of their father's reign, so he was crown-prince until the early years of Ramses II's sixth decade of rule, at least up to his 50th regnal year.

One consequence of celebrating the king's Jubilees meant that for the second one (in Ramses' 31th year... duh...), he built a special Jubilee temple at Memphis, marking his position as High Priest of Ptah and keeper of the Apis Bull. With this he actually created the Serapeum at Sakkara, just West of Memphis, building a funerary temple for the Bull and a series of tombs for them attached to that temple, thereby ending the practice of separate tombs and temples for each bull. This eventually meant that his name was seen by the notaries burying these bulls until the end of the practice in the 3rd century of our Christian Era. This noteworthiness made him the subject of a "Romance" which survived from the Third Intermediate Period and the Late Period in its demotic version as the Setne Chaemwase Cycle. Truly the Egyptian counterpart of our European Merlin, so to say.

Anyway, now I'm actually coming to the point...

This crown-prince Chaemwaset had a first born son, called Ramses, who was old enough to take the offices of his father as High Priest of Ptah when the latter died. He didn't. Instead, a second son Huy did. Some details of the career of this first born son Ramses, carrying the title of Prince "by courtesy", still exist. These details include the name of his scribe and some correspondence which the skipper of his "private yacht" seems to have passed on to temple singers for his friends. That sounds blurry, I know, but I'll surely look into that.

Ramses, son of Chaemwaset, disappears and his brother Huy succeeds to all of his father's positions. However, another Ramses appears around the time of Merneptah, previously the 12th son and crown-prince to Ramses II. When Merneptah dies, he's succeeded by "the usurper" Amenmesse. Then this man comes in, called "Ramses Em Per Ra", apparently from Syria, taking some part in the deposing of Amenmesse and the placing of Seti, son of Merneptah, on the throne. The young Seti as "the rightful king" becomes Seti II. Starting with this young boy this "Ramses Em Per Ra" became a Kingmaker for the rest of the dynasty, apparently including the placement of Queen Tawosret on the throne. This soon incited rebellion though and a certain Setnakht took his chance to expell the Kingmaker and his followers. The Harris-Papyrus and several other threads here revolve around this.

Now here's the theory.

This second person of the Kingmaker fits many of the connections to the earlier (apparently disgraced) young Prince who went by the same name.

The man's name "Ramses Em Per Ra" means he was "from the House of Ra" - the royal palace at Pi-Ramses. Comes with it that the name of "Ramses" wasn't very popular yet and that people who wore this name usually were born a little later, during the end of the dynasty. There aren't a lot of references at least to earlier Ramses'es. He's often been called "Bai" or "Bay" later on, which has been interpreted as meaning "Son of Osiris". I wonder why, but you can easily use that to refer to other sources. The next dynasty made a great deal of the expulsions, calling the people around him "the followers of Set". The event shows up in Manetho's account of what Josephus took to be the Exodus, namely the action with Osarsiph, also meaning... "son of Osiris". Then the Demotic "Romance" of the Setne Chaemwase Cycle has a certain tale of wonder about his equally magical son "Si-Osiris", besting the Nubian kings, only to vanish like a shadow from the court and leaving his father to grieve until a second son was born to him, named Weser Montu Hor. Myth meating history?

It would fit the man as well being a royal prince of the dynasty to become so close to other royalties like Seti II, Siptah and Tawosret. Maybe the fact of the son of Chaemwaset's falling out of grace as being similar to the setting aside of the rightfull heir to the throne by Amenmesse, caused these two factions to ally. Both being "rejects" of the Ramesside dynasty, it would be a probable outcome of the son of Chaemwaset and the son of Merneptah to seek contact with each other, gather up their forces and make a chance for a second, "rightfull" coup against Amenmesse.

Why "Bay" is called a Syrian then? You have the possible descent of the Ramesside dynasty - reason why I mentioned that - but it could well be that Bay never was actually considered being Syrian or Canaanite by descent. After all, if he really was this son of Chaemwaset who fell out of grace, where would he have gone to? Egypt wouldn't be the place to stay and a forced suicide would've made sure his name never to have been found again - it would've been carved out, destroyed, silenced and in the case of a smaller Prince this wouldn't have had to be a hard thing to realize. Maybe he was banned, living in Syrian exile? "Syrian" was surely used as a "curse" in the texts regarding Bay, but these texts come from Sethnakhte's age though, not from earlier sources. Like that they could easily be mere politically inspired "pamphlets".

Then a last argument (notice: argument, not evidence) Wink
Bay got buried in the Valley of the Kings.
Or at least he had a tomb cut out.
Would a commoner ever do this?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone got bored?
That was long... Rolling Eyes
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's really fascinating.
I had not heard of Ramses em per Ra (sounds a bit like emperror doesn't it:D)

Somehow it does make sense. Why a totally strange Syrian at court, if there must me so many male family members around?

I was looking at www.narmer.pl yesterday. In the family tree they have Hori with 2 sons I believe.
There's also mention of Nefertari II (daughter of Nefertari Meryenmut) having a son called Seti. Never heard much about him though.

Sethnakht takes over at some point and expels someone called by a different name (can't remember and can't find it Confused )

Are Bay - Ramses - "person expelled by Sethnakht" the same?
But how does he get buried in the Valley of the King's then?

Any clues from the tomb?
We may be simul-posting so the answers may be up by the time I hit submit Laughing
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
That's really fascinating.
I had not heard of Ramses em per Ra (sounds a bit like emperror doesn't it:D)

Was thinking the same. Smile

annie wrote:
Somehow it does make sense. Why a totally strange Syrian at court, if there must me so many male family members around?

You couldn't ever say Ramses II didn't take his job for serious indeed. Cool

annie wrote:
Sethnakht takes over at some point and expels someone called by a different name (can't remember and can't find it Confused )
Are Bay - Ramses - "person expelled by Sethnakht" the same?
But how does he get buried in the Valley of the King's then?

I think we're talking about the same guy there.
He made his tomb in the Valley, that's for sure.
But I was just looking if he got buried there too.

annie wrote:
We may be simul-posting so the answers may be up by the time I hit submit Laughing

It came close, but wasn't yet finished looking up the tomb. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When looking at the myths, does Si-Osiris the son of Setne Khaemwese ever return to court at a later time?

Like you said it is interesting that the myths include a son who's even more powerful than his father.

If Ramses son of Khaemwese was exciled, what would he have done?
One thing that comes to mind is trying to take over some power. Somehow looking at the trial from the time of Ramses III major plotting would lead to the death of the convicted. Unless he knew he was betrayed and fled?
Total guess work, but I'm just curious what would get someone banned from Egypt.

Maybe the influence of his father saved him from further harm?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tomb is very unusual for an official's burial. Very large in size and actually with the plan of a royal tomb, cut out very close to the tombs of Seti II, Tawosret and Siptah. Its architecture and decoration closely resemble those of the tomb of the latter Queen, but not a lot of it has survived since the tomb has suffered severe structural damage from various floods and all the ceilings have collapsed. The tomb has only recently been cleared of flood debris, when a protective roof was also installed over the entrance to keep out future floods. Sad...

The tomb consists of three corridors followed by two chambers, two further corridors, two side chambers and a burial chamber. Not a usual official's tomb at all... It's also been re-used for the burial of two 20th dynasty 20 princes (Mentuherkhepeshef and Amenherkhepeshef, sons of Ramses III).

The walls were probably originally decorated with painted plaster and relief. The floods have caused the loss of the plaster however and now the only traces of decoration remain in places where the artists were working on thinner plaster or where the chiseling is cut into the bedrock. The remaining decorations echo those of Tawosrets KV14 and represent the deceased with deities and parts of the Book of the Dead.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So he really held quasi-royal stature. Hard to believe he was merely a commoner.
I'm not sure what happened with banished or trialed people.
For royalty banishment surely was a penalty, as was forced suicide.

annie wrote:
Maybe the influence of his father saved him from further harm?

I wonder what he had done not to get his father's titles actually...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ineresting that the tomb was reused so quickly.
There can't be that many years between the deaths of the sons of Ramses III and the death of Bay.
Does make one wonder if it was ever used for Bay.
If it was, then he was removed in a big hurry.
Does point to the possibility of him being on the loosing end of a power struggle. (In stead of just dying and things getting busy after he died, I mean)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he was still alive by the time of the Confusion and Setnakhte's coup. That would give him an Aye-like age I guess. Chaemwaset died around year 50 of Ramses II. If you take his son (Ramses) to be 20 years old around that date, then he's born around 1250BC. That would make him 65 by the downfall of Tawosret. Still keeps it plausible equating Bay with this Ramses.

I'm still not completely out of the name-change.
There's a thought, but it's quite extreme though.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The Followers of Set" was the name given by 20th dynasty chronicles to the loyals to Bay.
A religeous feud? Could make sense leaving the Ramses-name, but still...
Picking up an Osiris-name then... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:

I'm still not completely out of the name-change.
There's a thought, but it's quite extreme though.


Which is? ......
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't Sethnakhte a "Follower of Set" as well? Smile
Anyway, it probably wasn't meant as a curse-name...
Bay is written with the sign of a bull (and two feathers for the "y").
The bull could indicate an affiliation with the Eastern Delta actually.
If u only take a look at how the nomes are called there...
Osiris seems to have been worshiped frequently here in the form of a bull.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Which is? ......

Right above that.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And no, still not contented with the reasons for a name-change or the meaning of "Bay"... Smile
Any suggestions?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it have been a nickname that became more official?
If his name starts with a bull and Khaemwese was in charge of the Apis bulls in Memphis, then it could be some homage.
Egyptian liked verbal puns, or so I keep reading.
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