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Did AIII die in Year 30?
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RobertStJames
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Did AIII die in Year 30? Reply with quote

If Amenhotep III died in Year 30, then the accession of Tiye's two daughters to GRW takes on a very different significance. Kheruef's tomb contains a lot of elements that look like funeral rites for a deceased AIII. Does anyone know who the "some" refers to down below? What Egyptologists believe AIII died in Year 30?





The passageway
a) - Left side (south) (view rb_0067)

This is divided into two registers, upper and lower, each subdivided in two distinct scenes.
Upper register (view rb_0068 and view rb_0058)
The two scenes of offering are very difficult to examine because of relentless effort to destroy the figures of Amenhotep IV.
on the right of the wall, partially preserved, Amenhotep IV, who faces towards the inside, makes libation to his father Amenhotep III and to queen Tiy; the complexity of the king's appearance can once more be admired (view B_3289). The presence of Amenhotep III in this context is ambiguous, and some advance the idea that the old sovereign had already died at this time, but the arguments of proof are insufficient.


(http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/kheru/e_kherouef_02.htm)
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No there was another sed festival in year 34 and another in year 37. It's usually assumed that Amenhotep died sometime between year 38 and 40.

The text you mention does not suggest that Amenhotep III was believed to have died by year 30. The question is just if Akhenaten is shown with his living father or with his deified (deceased) father. If King Akhenaten stands before his living father, then an argument could be made for a coregency. If he is standing before his deified father, then it may just mean that the inscription was commissioned after Amenhotep III died

On page 4 of the website you're referring to is mention of the third festival:
West portico, north wing
This wall is dedicated to the third jubilee sed-festival of Amenhotep III, for which Kheruef had the responsibility of organising during the 37th year of reign of his sovereign


The scenes here show Amenhotep III very much alive and participating in the ceremonies.
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stephaniep
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that maybe the three Sed festivals at the end of the reign of Amenhotep III and the three Sed festivals that appear at the beginning of Ahkenaten's reign (at a rather unusual time of life) were the same three Sed festivals.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akhenaten only had one sed festival if I understand the info correctly. I had wondered the same about a possible overlap between Akhenaten's festival and one of his fathers.

The discussion is here: http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4483
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RobertStJames
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
No there was another sed festival in year 34 and another in year 37. It's usually assumed that Amenhotep died sometime between year 38 and 40.

<...>

On page 4 of the website you're referring to is mention of the third festival:
West portico, north wing
This wall is dedicated to the third jubilee sed-festival of Amenhotep III, for which Kheruef had the responsibility of organising during the 37th year of reign of his sovereign


The scenes here show Amenhotep III very much alive and participating in the ceremonies.


So it goes conventionally, but I think we're starting to see that convention might not have all the details right. AIII's Year 37 hangs by a slim thread, and is from a heavily damaged panel.


Kheruef leads two others
To the right of the scene were Kheruef presents the gifts, the area is divided into three sub-registers. In each the deceased leads two men into the presence of the king. All the men, including Kheruef, of each register have been severly hammered out by the Atenites (view rb_0096). Very little remains visible except for the legs and the bottom of the tunics of those of the lower register (view tb_01959). Two columns of text in front of each register indentifies who it is that Kheruef leads. The text for the top one (although damaged) states: "Year 37, ushering in the companions to be placed in the royal presence in His Majesty's third jubilee, by the noble, count, great companion of the Lord of the Two Lands, first royal herald of the one who is in the palace, royal scribe, and steward of the principal wife of the king, Tiye, may she live, Kheruef, justified.


It's curious that this particular panel, and this exact area of that panel, are singled out for such heavy damage. I'm not a hiero expert, but I've heard the glyphs should be read right to left if the people and animals are facing that direction. If that's the case, then the "Year 37" is at the beginning of the most heavily damaged section. From the scan on the page, it looks unreadable. How much do we know about this interpretation? Where did it come from, who made it, what exact section of glyphs is being translated?


I agree about the overlap. I think this same sequence is shown in Akh's public art. But I don't think it's a sed-festival so much as the far more familiar scene of the death of one Pharaoah and the accession of the next.

RstJ
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I don't think it's a sed-festival so much as the far more familiar scene of the death of one Pharaoah and the accession of the next.


There are no depictions of any "accession at the time of death" scenes.
The coronations are alluded to in inscriptions by Hatshepsut and Horemheb for instance, but the Sed festivals are the much more familiar ones.

Hundreds of jar labels discovered at Malqata record the delivery of provisions for all 3 festivals (years 30, 34 and 37) according to Hayes. These were discovered during the excavations of the Malqata site in 1910-1920 and 1971-1974. This is mentioned in Amenhotep III: Perspectives on his Reign by O'Conner and Cline (Editors).

This is not exactly something just assumed without much evidence.
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RobertStJames
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephaniep wrote:
I thought that maybe the three Sed festivals at the end of the reign of Amenhotep III and the three Sed festivals that appear at the beginning of Ahkenaten's reign (at a rather unusual time of life) were the same three Sed festivals.


I think we need to take another look at "sed festivals," "durbars" and funerals/successions and start asking if we're not seeing the same thing in all three cases. The conventional explanation of "oh, they had them every 30 years" doesn't hold up at all. Even if we accept the theoretical dates, they happen at odd intervals. Yet the iconography seems very similar: ruler on throne accepting offerings, usually from their successor. Multiple registers of people bringing tribute. Very specific dates inscribed. Family members shown in stylized poses and positions.

Maybe we should stop looking for the differences between Armarna and the rest of Egyptian history and start focusing on the similarities.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering the many sed festivals of Ramesses II and no succession festivals, I would say that this is a wild goose chase.
The sed festivals were held quite a few times during the reign of Ramesses II and they were announced throughout the country by first the royal son Khaemwaset and later the vizier Khay. And it's quite clear that they were rejuvenation ceremonies, not something about succession or funerals.

These festivals date back all the way to the very early dynasties.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do wonder about at what point AIII became the "Living Aten." I thought it was before the first Sed, in which case he would have become a living God rather than a dead Pharoah at that time of the bas relief. I realize he was always a god, but I thought he stepped it up a notch.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephaniep wrote:
I do wonder about at what point AIII became the "Living Aten." I thought it was before the first Sed, in which case he would have become a living God rather than a dead Pharoah at that time of the bas relief. I realize he was always a god, but I thought he stepped it up a notch.


In Amenhotep III: Perspectives on his Reign (pg 90 etc), it is mentioned Amenhotep was deified in year 30. He was assimilated with the sun god as a result of his jubilee rites. Amenhotep became the living manifestation of the sun god and all of Egypt's gods (including Ptah and Osiris). Apparently Tiye was deified as well.

This seems to be related to the temples in Soleb and Sedeinga. Amenhotep was worshipped as the sun, moon and Lord of Nubia in Soleb, Tiye was worshipped as Hathor (and the Eye of Ra) in Sedeinga.
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RobertStJames
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

There are no depictions of any "accession at the time of death" scenes.


Isn't this one of the more common tomb scenes--the new ruler paying his respects to the now deceased predecessor? Ay and Tut, for example?



Quote:

Hundreds of jar labels discovered at Malqata record the delivery of provisions for all 3 festivals (years 30, 34 and 37) according to Hayes. These were discovered during the excavations of the Malqata site in 1910-1920 and 1971-1974. This is mentioned in Amenhotep III: Perspectives on his Reign by O'Conner and Cline (Editors).

This is not exactly something just assumed without much evidence.


There are a lot of things assumed on very little evidence the closer we get to Amarna. Hayes' 1951 "Inscriptions" appears to be the primary source for the Year 34,37 claims, and consist of piles of ostraca from the Malkata palace dating to Year 30,34,37. Except it's not clear how many actual dates he got from these fragments.

Cathleeen Keller was revising the translations. Did she ever publish?
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stephaniep
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Amenhotep was deified in year 30.


So he married the daughters as a full god. He definitely married them right? It couldn't be they were married and it had to be him (not Ahkenaten) could it?

Quote:
Isn't this one of the more common tomb scenes--the new ruler paying his respects to the now deceased predecessor? Ay and Tut, for example?


As a living god would his Pharonic duties change and would those duties be turned over to another and is this what we could be seeing?

But he married the Mitanni princess Tadukhipa in year 36 right? And then Ahkenaten (definitely?) married her after AIII dies? That should pinpoint a regime change.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a big difference between observing rites before an ancestor and the sed festival. The running around the boundary stones, the raising of the djed pillar etc are part of the sed festival and are aimed to rejuvenation of the king. They show the king participating and not him being buried.

The opening of the mouth scene in Tut's tomb is unique among all the royal tombs for as far as I know. The sed festivals are not depicted in the King's tomb. They may show up in a temple or in the tomb of a noble.

And like I mentioned, the sed festivals held by Ramesses II show they have nothing to do with the succession. I think he may have held as many as 12 festivals?

If the idea is that the deification of Amenhotep III in year 30 is a sign of his death then that does not work either as there is a statue of Amenhotep son of Hapu dated to year 31 of Nebmaatre. So he was definitely alive after the festival.

I haven't seen any new results from the Malqata excavations, but how many year 34 and 37 labels do you need? Seems to me that there is plenty of reason to give a reign of at least 38 years to Amenhotep III. It's not clear if he may have made it as far as year 40 though.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephaniep wrote:

So he married the daughters as a full god. He definitely married them right? It couldn't be they were married and it had to be him (not Ahkenaten) could it?

All we know is that Sitamen became a great royal wife in year 30 and Isis probably in year 34. It's usually assumed that this meant they married their father. I guess there is still a small chance they married a royal prince?

stephaniep wrote:

But he married the Mitanni princess Tadukhipa in year 36 right? And then Ahkenaten (definitely?) married her after AIII dies? That should pinpoint a regime change.

I think it's not completely clear in what year Tadukhipa arrived. I have always heard the year36 as the estimate (like you).

The Amarna letters indicate that Tadukhipa is later Akhenaten's wife from what I understand. It may well be that Akhenaten inherited his father's harem (with the exception of his mother as she became Queen Mother).
That could also include his sisters at this point (if not before).

I have always wondered about what exactly happened to the harem and its women.

The elevation of the royal daughters to great royal wife is interesting. Ramesses II does the same with his daughters Bentanath, Merytamen and Nebettawy and Henutmire (assuming the latter is also a daughter).
Bentanath is depicted in her tomb with a daughter so she consumated the marriage. But there one possibility is that they married the crown prince (One for Amunhirkhepeshef, one for Prince Ramesses, one for Khaemwaset and one for Merenptah?)

In the Amarna case it could then mean Akhenaten married his sisters? Or did he inherit them later? I think we just don't know. We also don't know if Akhenaten was already of age when the year 30 festival was held.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All we know is that Sitamen became a great royal wife in year 30 and Isis probably in year 34
.

So there is a outside chance that the marriage of Isis could have been to Ahkenaten (AIII being a God)?

The reason Isis is interesting is that in looking for information about a daughter that could have been murdered, I found this forum thread:

Link

Isis is the only mutilated part of this sculpture, so someone must have had it in for her. Of course if she survived into the next regime should would have to have a name change to something more atenish, and it's back to square 1.

I thought I read that Sitamun/Great Royal Wife was more of an official meet n greet thing rather than strictly sexual. The other two daughters are more in line with the David Koresh type of godhead, but if one or more were married to their brother it gets them into the current picture in the right type of place.
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