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Implications of DNA results + KV55=Akhenaten
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Toth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkessler wrote:

If we accept those assumptions, then the possibility of adultery by Nefertiti is at least on the table, side by side with the possibility that the mummy in KV55 is not Akhenaten. If others are free to speculate on the latter, then I am free to speculate on the former.


Is that how the "game" is played? I am starting to wonder if Dave Kessler is not a pseudonym for Zahi Hawass (and by now you should know how I think about him) But let's not follow that track. Dave, how about the hinted plot in my last post's last paragraphs, which I quote here again:
Toth wrote:

Shortly after Smenkhare became the sole ruler Nefertiti, must have made a come-back and rather suddenly Smenkhare and Merit-Aten were no longer mentioned. It's very feasible that there was a conspiracy to lay hands on the throne, but the evidence for this is too sparse to be sure.What is certain though is that Nefertiti was involved in the events that lead to Tutankhamun becoming King in 1352 BC

If there was a conspiracy,and the King and his wife were killed, mummified and the mummies destroyed afterwards,we will never find any proof for the existence of King Smenkhare, but from history we know he existed! And, as long the names of the dead are spoken....
I see an opportunity for a plot that is historically even slightly acceptable, and ready to use, so why not use it, and I offer you the idea royalty-free, just mentioning that you had some help from Toth would be fine (and given who he is, no one will be really surprised Laughing Wink

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dkessler
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
I am starting to wonder if Dave Kessler is not a pseudonym for Zahi Hawass (and by now you should know how I think about him)


Let me say for the record that I am NOT Zahi Hawass! I do not want to state MY opinion of him, lest it spoil my chances of getting a visa to Egypt to do my research. But anyone who can say that the Maimonides Synagogue is not a Jewish house of worship is actually saying a lot more about himself than about the Maimonides Synagogue.

As far as the conspiracy is concerned, I have already developed the story and it certainly involves the killing of a a queen, but that is Tutankhamun's mother (KV35YL) which is supported by forensic pathology. I might also have Nefertiti bumped off.

I think that after Akhenaten died (whether immediately after or a few years later) there was a power struggle between a pro-Aten faction (Ay and Nefertiti) and a pro-Amun faction (Horemheb). I think that Ay was the <i>source</i> of Akhenaten's pro-Aten "monotheism" not merely a sycophantic follower. This is supported by the Great Hymn to Aten in Ay's tomb. The fact that Ay went along with the pro-Amun counter-revolution is consistent with a wily (aging) politican's technique of conceding SOME of what the opposition wants in the hope that they will be satisfied.

I believe that one manifestation of this power struggle was over King Tut's heart and mind. Hence the change of name, the nomination of Horemheb as heir, Ay's marriage to (apperently) his own grand-daughter to outmanouveur Horemheb and then Horemheb's more extreme counter-revolution, damnatio memoriae and revision of the list of Kings, the desecration of tombs (with King Tut's spared because of his eventual support for the Amun faction).

Anyway, I'd better not say any more or some one will pinch my ideas. Suffice it to say that ultimately I can only write my book. But feel free to write a competing one with your theories! A bit of public competition will be good for publicity and might make both of us rich! Laughing
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Toth
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Dave,

Oh I do miss a Razz smilie here (which we obviously have), because that would have been the one behind the "Hawass" statement Very Happy I understand you're want to observe caution what you say here, but I don't think he can influence an application for visa, unless you want to dig somewhere, of course. I am (depending on how you look at it) in the (un)fortunate circumstance that I most likely never will visit Egypt (it has to do with my condition.)

Dave, you can have all the "public competition" that you want right here, but I will never get rich because of it, but you might Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
I am (depending on how you look at it) in the (un)fortunate circumstance that I most likely never will visit Egypt (it has to do with my condition.)


If it's not impertinent to ask, what is your condition?

Sorry, I am newbie here.

Dave
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Toth
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkessler wrote:
Toth wrote:
I am (depending on how you look at it) in the (un)fortunate circumstance that I most likely never will visit Egypt (it has to do with my condition.)


If it's not impertinent to ask, what is your condition?

Sorry, I am newbie here.

Dave


Hello Dave

Look in your PM-inbox; even though nothing to be ashamed of, it isn't something I'd like to have put on the "General Publication board" either Wink Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefertum wrote:
If Tutankhamen and Ankhensenamun are brother and sister, they share the same father. They may have the same or different mothers.

If Tutankhamen's mother, KV35YL, is Nefertiti, then she is also the mother of his wife, Ankhensenamun, and they are full brother and sister, and the same relationship (it seems) should show between their DNA as does that of KV55 & KV35YL.

The two foetuses from KV62 can be Tut's daughters, and KV21A is suggested as the mother of the two.

KV21A shows descent from Amenhotep III and also from Thuya. However, she also appears (caveat: if I am reading the chart correctly) to show descent from some other unknown source, which Tutankhamen does not share, and which was not a part of this study.

If KV21A is not Ankhensenamun, then it appears from the study that Tutankhamen was quite possibly also married to some other, previously unknown/unrecorded descendent of Amenhotep III.

If, however, KV21A indeed is Ankhensenamun, then the unknown/unsourced genetic material would seem to suggest that they do not share the same mother, and if that is so, KV35YL cannot be Nefertiti.

Or am I missing something?

nb: I am basing this with the assumption that the study is correct in its assertion as to the identity of KV55 as Akhenaten -- an identification about which I have misgivings.


How about this:

    Tutankhamen is the son of Akhenaten and KV35YL (Nebetah/Beketaten)
    Akhenaten and KV35YL are full siblings (offspring of Amenhotep III and KV35EL (Tiye) )
    Nefertiti is the daughter of Ay and an unknown wife
    Ankhensenamun is the daughter of an adulterous/incestuous union between Nefertiti and Ay
    This explains the discrepancy at D7S820 of the two fetuses who are the children of Tutankhamen and Ankhensenamun.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkessler wrote:

How about this:

    Tutankhamen is the son of Akhenaten and KV35YL (Nebetah/Beketaten)
    Akhenaten and KV35YL are full siblings (offspring of Amenhotep III and KV35EL (Tiye) )
    Nefertiti is the daughter of Ay and an unknown wife
    Ankhensenamun is the daughter of an adulterous/incestuous union between Nefertiti and Ay
    This explains the discrepancy at D7S820 of the two fetuses who are the children of Tutankhamen and Ankhensenamun.


OR, (as some people already posted here)

KV55 (Tut's father) is not Akhenaten, but a brother of his (Smenkhkare?) and thus Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun are not brother and sister but cousins.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkessler, all this speculation is fine for fiction, but if you expect people here to agree with you, you need to restudy the evidence and come up with some better, structured hypothesis. there are a few people running around coming up with blatantly unresearched hypothesis that make no sense when compared to the dna or archeological record.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear dkessler, whatever could Nefertiti have driven to commit adultery with her own father?
Desire? Too queer for me.
Royal father-daughter marriage? But Aye was no king at that time.

As you suggest this theory and apparently even have written a novel on this topic you can surely come up with an explanation (which I am eager to hear or better read).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkessler wrote:
Nefertiti is the daughter of Ay and an unknown wife
Ankhensenamun is the daughter of an adulterous/incestuous union between Nefertiti and Ay
This explains the discrepancy at D7S820 of the two fetuses who are the children of Tutankhamen and Ankhensenamun.


Say what? Where on earth did THAT come from?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
dkessler wrote:
Nefertiti is the daughter of Ay and an unknown wife
Ankhensenamun is the daughter of an adulterous/incestuous union between Nefertiti and Ay
This explains the discrepancy at D7S820 of the two fetuses who are the children of Tutankhamen and Ankhensenamun.


Say what? Where on earth did THAT come from?


It only takes a vivid mind.... Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
dkessler, all this speculation is fine for fiction, but if you expect people here to agree with you, you need to restudy the evidence and come up with some better, structured hypothesis. there are a few people running around coming up with blatantly unresearched hypothesis that make no sense when compared to the dna or archeological record.


The belief that the mummy in KV55 is Smenkhare is itself speculation (and is not shared by Zahi Hawass, Nicholas Reeves, etc.

There is nothing in the archaeological record to imply that Ankhensenamun is Tutankhamun's cousin rather than his half sister.

The DNA (locus D7S820) shows that the two Foetuses could not BOTH be the children of BOTH Tutankhamen and his half sister. This is a discrepancy that requires an explanation.
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dkessler
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Dear dkessler, whatever could Nefertiti have driven to commit adultery with her own father?
Desire? Too queer for me.
Royal father-daughter marriage? But Aye was no king at that time.

As you suggest this theory and apparently even have written a novel on this topic you can surely come up with an explanation (which I am eager to hear or better read).


Her father was a cunning (and lustful) schemer. In addition to his raw lust, he wanted power for himself and his daughter. When King Tut was born, he sensed his power waning, so he killed Tut's mother (KV35YL) with a mighty blow and for a while at least, Nefertiti looked after the kid. After her death, Tut became king and there was a struggle for his heart and mind between Ay and Horemheb over whether to continue or end the Amarna reforms and the cult of Aten. That's all speculation (admittedly): the rest is history.

I don't know if I'm supposed to mention the book's title as it might be construed as advertising. But you can check me out on Wikipedia (that's mostly fantasy too!) or check out my website.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkessler wrote:
The DNA (locus D7S820) shows that the two Foetuses could not BOTH be the children of BOTH Tutankhamen and his half sister. This is a discrepancy that requires an explanation.


then it's quite obvious isnt it. they are not half siblings. ankhsenamun is attested as akhenaten and nefertiti's daughter. now if you go by the archeological evidence that she is tut's only KNOWN wife, and he may have had many. if you accept she is a mummy from kv 21, then it is impossible for her to be the daughter of kv 55. but she inherited dna that is in keeping with amenhotep III. what answer do you get from it? because a lot of people read it isnt akhenaten in kv 55.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
then it's quite obvious isnt it. they are not half siblings.

Agreed

kylejustin wrote:
ankhsenamun is attested as akhenaten and nefertiti's daughter.

How did they know? Did they have paternity tests in those days?


kylejustin wrote:
now if you go by the archeological evidence that she is tut's only KNOWN wife, and he may have had many. if you accept she is a mummy from kv 21, then it is impossible for her to be the daughter of kv 55.

Actually the problem exists whether or not she is either of the female KV21 mummies. And I do accept that she was not Akhenaten's daughter. But that doesn't mean that she wasn't thought to be at the time.
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