Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Implications of DNA results + KV55=Akhenaten
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Implications of DNA results + KV55=Akhenaten Reply with quote

The DNA results show that KV 55 is the son of Amenhotep III (or the mummy identified as Amenhotep III) and Tiye.

And KV 55/Akhenaten and his sister-wife were the parents of Tutankhamen.

This does mean that Akhenaten married at least one of his sisters. That raises the question if Sitamen and Isis - when elevated to great royal wife - were possibly married to Akhenaten.

It also raises the question if Nefertiti could be one of these royal women, or even Henuttaneb or Nebetah (Beketaten may be a bit too young?)
If not, then why raise her to such prominence when there were women of higher standing around at a court where Queen-Mother Tiye seems to have had some influence?

The birth of Tutankhamen takes place sometime between year 9 and 12 of Akhenaten (depending on a possible reign of Neferneferuaten and or Smenkhare between Akhenaten and Tutankhamen).

From what I understand Akhenaten always lived at Amarna after year 4 or so, so this means that Tut was conceived and likely born there as well. This does mean we have a harem including Nefertiti, Kiya, anonymous Sister-wife, and Tadukhipa. Unless of course we get to identify some of these ladies. (Kiya=?Tadukhipa etc)

But it does mean that the Royal sister of Akhenaten must have lived in Amarna as well. Where? Why no inscriptions of her at all? Why no mention of this royal lady during Queen Tiye's visit to Amarna? She must have visited her daughter wouldn't she? But the only people she is recorded to have visited are Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Or was she just not important enough to be mentioned at that time?

The KV 35 YL mummy is said to have suffered trauma which lead to her death. Did she have an accident? Was she murdered? How old was she when she died? Isn't she supposed to be in her early 20s at time of death?

If so, then was she too young to be Queen when Akhenaten took the throne? Could that account to her playing 2nd fiddle to Nefertiti? (assuming for a moment they are separate individuals)

If KV 35YL is actually Nefertiti herself, then she died relatively young and that may put a crimp in the theories that Nefertiti became "Pharaoh Neferneferuaten"
And it begs the question who the Queen's Sister Mutnodjemet/Mutbenret then really was.

This is a huge leap (or several huge leaps to be honest, but hey I'm having fun), but if Mutnodjemet really married Horemheb, and Mutnodjemet was a younger daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, then that may be just the kind of connection Horemheb was looking for.

LOL If my head starts spinning any more, I could film a remake of the exorcist ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burlgirl
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Corinth, New York

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being far from a specialist, and also having a hard time holding all of these pieces together... I'll offer this.

I canít see KV 35YL as Nefertiti Ė isnít 35YL to young for that? I also, no matter what, canít see her as Beketaten. 35YL is too old for that! Or, Beketaten was too young to be a mother when Tut was born, if my understanding is correct.

However, if she was Sitamen, and died fairly young, that could explain why we donít see much of Sitamen in the Akhetaten years. Of course, we donít see much of the other royal sisters, either. ^^shrug^^

In the end, we donít know, but at this point Iím placing my bet on Sitamen. Itís a safe bet, because I donít think weíll be able to say one or another! Wink
_________________
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which
he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

Thomas Jefferson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
christphe
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think Baketaton a better candidate. But all this is speculation from our part. Egyptians from the time of akhenaton were aware of who Nefertiti was and who was the mother of Tut.
I have an old book by Desroche Noblecourt from the 60's and she mention Sitamon as candidate!

What about marriage? are we sure a Pharao needed to be married to have sexual relationn?

One of the strangest thing about Akhenaton reign is the importance of Nefertiti as partner playing the Tefnout role next to Shu. I have never think about this before but now i wonder if there is a possibility she was is sister under another name.
I don't know if anksenaton is said to be Tut sister
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or it could be Queen Isis:


King's Daughter, King's Wife Isis

Isis seems to have been elevated to Great royal wife in year 34 of Amenhotep III. If she was in her twenties when she died after ca year 9-12 of Akhenaten, then she would have been very young when this elevation in status during her father's reign occurred. Maybe 10 or so?

That means Sitamen would have been even older. So that makes them a bit more unlikely I think to be the mother of Tut. Unless we have a serious co-regency? ....... It's only a matter of time until that one rears it's little head, isn't it Very Happy

Nebetah maybe?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems as if the result of this testing is giving us more questions than it's answering!

I've always maintained that A III was Tutankhamun's father, but it seems I have been proven wrong.
Anneke, if,theory-wise, Nefertiti died early in her late 20's, why do we have a statue of her showing a woman in her 40's or later?
If the horrible disfigurment was pre-death of the YL, I would hardly think that could have been an accident!
Do you think it's possible that the unknown queen could have been pre-name change--Nefertiti? She seems to have had such a major role in Aketaten.
Club foot? Perhaps they just meant a pre-disposition to a club foot. The earlier CT scan made no mention of it, and I would think it would be a big discovery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
It seems as if the result of this testing is giving us more questions than it's answering!

Very Happy Yes it does.

Osiris II wrote:

Anneke, if,theory-wise, Nefertiti died early in her late 20's, why do we have a statue of her showing a woman in her 40's or later?

Thanks for reminding me. I had not thought of that statue at all, but you're right. Assuming that this really meant to depict her age, then it seems KV35 YL cannot be Nefertiti just for age sake.


Osiris II wrote:
If the horrible disfigurment was pre-death of the YL, I would hardly think that could have been an accident!

It seems unlikely, I agree. I was just being ultra conservative in my statement.

Osiris II wrote:

Club foot? Perhaps they just meant a pre-disposition to a club foot. The earlier CT scan made no mention of it, and I would think it would be a big discovery!

I need to read that part of the report more closely over the weekend, but it seems that mild cases of clubfoot may have been present?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RobertStJames
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
It seems as if the result of this testing is giving us more questions than it's answering!


Actually, for a change, it's narrowing down the possible answers. Given the DNA results, Tut's mother can be one of only five women. Since only two of them are identified as GRWs, we have a choice between Sitamun and Isis.

It's a big jump from there to Nefertiti. But it's one that should be provable by testing the two stillborn children found with Tut. If these children were the product of incest, then we can safely trace back through Tut's sister-wife to Nefertiti.

It's tempting to guess Sitamon GRW to Thutmose V and Isis GRW to Akhenaten (and so avoid falling back on the persistent king/daughter "marriages" that now look to be misinterpretations rather than facts).

But I can't find that our cat-loving Crown Prince ever had a wife. Anyone?

RstJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Robson
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Implications of DNA results + KV55=Akhenaten Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
but if Mutnodjemet really married Horemheb, and Mutnodjemet was a younger daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, then that may be just the kind of connection Horemheb was looking for.

And why the hell the two sisters never had included the title of "King's Daughter" in their protocol???
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Implications of DNA results + KV55=Akhenaten Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
anneke wrote:
but if Mutnodjemet really married Horemheb, and Mutnodjemet was a younger daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, then that may be just the kind of connection Horemheb was looking for.

And why the hell the two sisters never had included the title of "King's Daughter" in their protocol???


Yeah, hence the "it's a huge leap" caveat...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still think it's more plausible that nefertiti and mutnofret are ay's daughters.
dodson mentions nakhtmin, before ay as king, with his mother's name: iuy, songstress of isis, adoratrix of min. and that she was ay's first wife and plausibly nefertiti's mother. he also thinks mutnofret/mutbenret, may have been tey's daughter.

tut's babies seem to have the same mitochondrial dna as tuya. the only reason that would happen is if their mother was in the female line descended from thuya or one of her sisters for example. maybe iuy was thuyas relative, and nefertiti's mother? that would explain why they babies and tutankhamun have the same mitochondrial dna, when nefertiti isnt related to the royal house?

i dont think akhenaten married his sisters. if he had, they would be more prominant, seeing as they were royal. i dont see why everyone says tut's father was akhenaten. smenkhare is just as likely a possibility. he would have been around meritaten's age or older at akhenaten's accession. young enough to be amenhotep III's son. he could have married one of the sisters, and as akhenaten had no sons, become co regent to learn the reigns. akhenaten died, smenkhare becomes king, dies after a year and is succeeded by his son, tutankhamun.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am really enjoying all the reading and speculation that is bouncing around, perhaps the Discovery channel (Sunday) will cast more light on matters - possibly not, my guess is that it will leave us wanting (and frustrated)... and waiting ready to pay-up for the next 'episode' (in one year's time!)

I have only one thing to throw into the mind-mix - the possibility of son/mother offspring, eg; (just for representative purposes) - if Tey (Ay's wife) was actually the offspring of Akhenaten and Tiye

There are some 'older' women around Amarna, most I would think remained capable of childbearing, if you can impregnate your sister or daughter, why not your mother? Just because she happened to be married to someone else (even a king) would not stop someone (or both) if the will existed

What if I had a daughter with my mother, and then I (or what about my father) attempted to breed with that daughter? - just playing with ideas, no matter how weird these ideas may sound today, we should not measure these folks by our standards. All this would kinda play into my pet-theory... that somehow, and in some way - 'these folks' were attempting to 'recreate' the gods (or ancestors) by acting out (perhaps in reverse) some of the relationships of 'myth' - someone above mentioned the possible relevance of the Akhenaten/Nefertiti - Shu/Tefnut allusion... just a thought
_________________
Est modus in rebus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Nefertum
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Tutankhamen and Ankhensenamun are brother and sister, they share the same father. They may have the same or different mothers.

If Tutankhamen's mother, KV35YL, is Nefertiti, then she is also the mother of his wife, Ankhensenamun, and they are full brother and sister, and the same relationship (it seems) should show between their DNA as does that of KV55 & KV35YL.

The two foetuses from KV62 can be Tut's daughters, and KV21A is suggested as the mother of the two.

KV21A shows descent from Amenhotep III and also from Thuya. However, she also appears (caveat: if I am reading the chart correctly) to show descent from some other unknown source, which Tutankhamen does not share, and which was not a part of this study.

If KV21A is not Ankhensenamun, then it appears from the study that Tutankhamen was quite possibly also married to some other, previously unknown/unrecorded descendent of Amenhotep III.

If, however, KV21A indeed is Ankhensenamun, then the unknown/unsourced genetic material would seem to suggest that they do not share the same mother, and if that is so, KV35YL cannot be Nefertiti.

Or am I missing something?

nb: I am basing this with the assumption that the study is correct in its assertion as to the identity of KV55 as Akhenaten -- an identification about which I have misgivings.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
tut's babies seem to have the same mitochondrial dna as tuya. the only reason that would happen is if their mother was in the female line descended from thuya or one of her sisters for example. maybe iuy was thuyas relative, and nefertiti's mother? that would explain why they babies and tutankhamun have the same mitochondrial dna, when nefertiti isnt related to the royal house?


The female foetuses gets Thuya's DNA via the fact that the mother of the foetuses is very likely Tiye's daughter. This simply means that Tutankhamun has a wife in Princess KV 21A, who may or may not be Ankhsenamun, but is definitely related to Tiye and thus to Thuya. However, the journal authors hedge their bets, saying: "Note that allele origins in KV21A and KV21B are suggestive and do not serve as proof of relationship with the Amenhotep III and Thuya lineages." (Hawass, Gad, et all 2010: 641, Fig. 1, note)

kylejustin wrote:
i dont think akhenaten married his sisters. if he had, they would be more prominant, seeing as they were royal.


Not necessarily: we didn't know about Kiya until about 30 years ago, and she was a secondary wife. The main wife shown was Nefertiti, who disappears - as queen - about Year 12, which is about the same year Tutankhamun was born. If Nefertiti died - and there are those to maintain this was the case - then Akhenaten may have married a royal sister in an effort to obtain a son, but chosen a daughter to serve as GRW - in this case, Meritaten.

Simply because this royal sister did produce a son does not always make the royal wife more prominently displayed. Recall that Isis, wife (or concubine) of Thutmose II, produced Thutmose III, but no imagery of her exists until her son became king. Thereafter, Isis is shown in reliefs and statues, and given new titles of /Hmt nsw wr.t/ "Great Royal Wife", /Hmt nsw mrt.f/ "King's wife whom he loves" and /Hnwt rsy mHw/ "lady of the South and the North." She possessed none of these titles as Thutmose II's wife.

kylejustin wrote:
i dont see why everyone says tut's father was akhenaten. smenkhare is just as likely a possibility. he would have been around meritaten's age or older at akhenaten's accession. young enough to be amenhotep III's son. he could have married one of the sisters, and as akhenaten had no sons, become co regent to learn the reigns. akhenaten died, smenkhare becomes king, dies after a year and is succeeded by his son, tutankhamun.


Yes, this is the weakness in the JAMA analysis, as I see it: they can prove as best as possible that KV 55 is a son of WV 22 and the KV 35 EL, it seems, but to prove it as Akhenaten, they have to claim a much older age for the remains than has been attested in 3 full body examinations (1931, 1966 and 2000) - without much supporting proof, I might add (I've addressed this in another thread), to make the age be old enough for Akhenaten. This seems to rely upon the idea that Smenkhkare simply does not exist, which flies in the face of relief images and texts to the contrary.

As we know so very little about Smenkhkare, the idea that he is a brother of Akhenaten, who is joined as king to Meritaten as queen (per the Meryre tomb at Amarna), but produced Tutankhamun with another royal Amenhotep III/Tiye royal sister is very possible, IMO.

I don't know why they are hot and heavy to claim KV 55 is Akhenaten - except for the fact it's one of Hawass' pet theories, and he heads the paper. Howevere, they are coy enough to say that KV 55 is "most probably Akhenaten", but never claim it's a fact.

Reference:

Derry, D. E. 1931. Notes on the Skeleton hitherto believed to be that of King Akhenaten. ASAE 31: 115-119.

Filer, J. 2000. The KV 55 body: the facts. Egyptian Archaeology 17/Autumn: 13-14.

Harrison, R. G. 1966. An Anatomical Examination of the Pharaonic Remains Purported to be Akhenaten. JEA 52: 95-119.

Hawass, Z., Y. Z. Gad, et al. 2010. Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamunís Family. Journal of the American medical Association 303/7: 638-647.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for that neseret! then im not going insane in my attempts to understand the dna charts!

thutmose IV married his sisters nefertiri and iaret, and as far as i can tell, they were prominant, and held the title king's great wife. so i would imagine if akhenaten had had a royal bride she would be prominant. unless he did, and she changed her name to nefertiti.

i saw the other thread on the kv 55 remains, and im so glad there is someone out there, who thinks it could be smenkhkare. im just sick of everyone trying to say we have akhenaten's body, without evaluating the evidence. it defeats the purpose of what we are trying to accomplish by ignoring evidence.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RobertStJames
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:

As we know so very little about Smenkhkare, the idea that he is a brother of Akhenaten, who is joined as king to Meritaten as queen (per the Meryre tomb at Amarna), but produced Tutankhamun with another royal Amenhotep III/Tiye royal sister is very possible, IMO.


When it comes to a choice between positing the existence of Egyptian royals based on a few hieroglyphs and pictures, and the possibility that we're seeing the same people with different names, I'm going with mistaken identity every time. Especially when I see a picture of a guy using a crutch being identified as "Smenkhare" when I've already got another guy with a tomb full of crutches named "Tutankhamun."

I don't have to theorize Tut's existence. I don't have to speculate that he used at least two different forms of his name during his lifetime. I don't have to guess about who his father is. I don't have to explain why both his immediate predecessor and immediate successor have tombs and funerary goods while he (Smenkhare) has neither. I just have to follow the bread crumbs pictorial that lead me to "Smenkhare"=Tut. He married his oldest sister Meritaten, just as his father married a sister. His sister Meriaten was known as Neferneferuaten once she became queen. Prior to that I think she was known as "Kiya" Akhenaten's non-existent 2nd wife. She died at Amarna, Tut married the next oldest surviving sister Ankhesenamun, and the scene shifted back to Thebes.

I know there are whole wings of libraries written saying otherwise, but none of those authors seem able to agree on much of anything past Year 12. They can't all be right. But they can certainly all be wrong. One thing Hawass has given us that's solid is an abilitity to use DNA to solve some of the big questions. So, at least for now, I'm following the bodies. And I don't have one ID'd (even theoretically) as Smenkhare.


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group