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Akhenaten's sed festival
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Akhenaten's sed festival Reply with quote

Akhenaten had a sed festival in his 3rd year. Usually those are held only after 30 years, so thatís a bit odd.

I wondered if there could be aconnection to one of Amenhotep III's festivals. Amenhotep III had festivals in years 30, 34, and 37. Maybe he had another one planned for year 40?

Looking at some different cases I wondered what would happen with respect to the other known events. Would some of those significant dates line up?

Version I. Akhenaten year 3 = Amenhotep III year 30
In this scenario Akhenaten would have become Pharaoh in year 28. This means Tuthmosis (crown prince) would have had to be dead by then.
Year 1 Akhenaten / Year 28 Amenhotep III begin co-regency
Year 3 Akhenaten / Year 30 Amenhotep III: 1st Festival in Thebes
Year 7 Akhenaten / Year 34 Amenhotep III : Amenhotep IIIís 2nd festival, Akhenaten would have lived in Amarna so would not have participated?
Year 10 Akhenaten / Year 37 Amenhotep III: 3rd festival for Amenhotep III in Thebes.
Year 12 Akhenaten / Year 39 Amenhotep III : Amenhotep III dies Akhenaten has a tribute as documented in some Amarna tombs.


Version II. Akhenaten year 3 = Amenhotep III year 34
Year 1 Akhenaten / Year 32 Amenhotep III begin co-regency. Maybe Akhenaten was too young in year 30 to become co-regent?
Year 3 Akhenaten / Year 34 Amenhotep III: 2nd Festival in Thebse for Amenhotep, 1st festival for Akhenaten
Year 6 Akhenaten / Year 37 Amenhotep III : Amenhotep has 3rd festival, Akhenaten now lives in Akhetaten
Year 8 Akhenaten / Year 39 Amenhotep III: Amenhotep dies and Akhenaten changes the name of the Aten soon after and becomes more fanatical.

Version III. Akhenaten year 3 = Amenhotep III year 37
Dan zou dus Akhenaten in year 35 op de troon zijn gekomen.
Year 1 Akhenaten / Year 35 Amenhotep III begin co-regency
Year 3 Akhenaten / Year 37 Amenhotep III: 3rd Festival in Thebes for Amenhotep III, 1st for Akhenaten.
Year 5 Akhenaten / Year 39 Amenhotep III : Amenhotep dies and Akhenaten changes name and moves to Akhetaten.

Version IV. Akhenaten year 3 = Amenhotep III year 40
Year 1 Akhenaten / Year 38 Amenhotep III begin co-regency
Year 3 Akhenaten / Year 40 Amenhotep III: Amenhotep III would have died as the preparations for a 4th festival had already started. Akhenaten takes the throne and fills in for his father at the festival.
Soon after this event Akhenaten changes his name and moves to Amarna.

Somehow version 4 appeals to me. It would have Amenhotep III possibly being ill towards the end of his life. He decides to ensure the continuity of government by installing Amenhotep IV as his co-ruler in year 38. Amenhotep III does continue in his sequence of sed festivals. But he dies and Amenhotep III decides to continue with the festivities and takes his fatherís place.

I know that just because it sounds nice, that doesnít mean it has to be true Very Happy.

What do people think? Do any of the scenarios sound likely?
Is it ďnone of the aboveĒ? Did Akhenaten just decide to hold a festival out of the blue?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image from the festival from the FitzWilliam Museum:
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading the abstract of Dorman, P. F. article "The Temple of Soleb: A Final Word on the Coregency, version IV sound likely to me.
Quote Anneke :
Version IV. Akhenaten year 3 = Amenhotep III year 40
Year 1 Akhenaten / Year 38 Amenhotep III begin co-regency
Year 3 Akhenaten / Year 40 Amenhotep III: Amenhotep III would have died as the preparations for a 4th festival had already started. Akhenaten takes the throne and fills in for his father at the festival.
Soon after this event Akhenaten changes his name and moves to Amarna.


Dorman, P. F. , 2008-04-25 "The Temple of Soleb: A Final Word on the Coregency
The publication by the Institut franÁais díarchťologie orientale of the ruins of Soleb Temple, based on a manuscript written by Michela Schiff Giorgini prior to her tragic death in 1978 and recently edited with great care by Natalie Beaux, provides a clear answer to the question of whether Amenhotep III enjoyed a long coregency with his son, Akhenaton. Although the majority of scholars no longer accepts a 12-year period of co-rule, or even a coregency of any length, it is worthwhile reviewing evidence that offers a definitive coda to a question that has long plagued historians of the New Kingdom.
The task of evaluating the evidence from Soleb is made somewhat problematic in that the publication of the temple architecture and decoration (in Soleb III, Soleb IV, and Soleb V) is a faithful articulation of Mme. Schiff Giorginiís own research of several decades ago and does not attempt to update her interpretations in light of more recent scholarship. Although based on sound archaeological information, these three volumes on Soleb misconstrue the time frame during which the temple was built; rather than stretching over 32 years of the reign of Amenhotep III, the earliest parts of the temple were doubtless erected just in time for the celebration of the first jubilee in regnal year 30 and the last can be dated to the kingís final years. The reliefs in the portico of the first pylon, which belong to last phase of building, show that Amenhotep IV surcharged a number of his fatherís cartouches there before he changed his name to Akhenaton in his own regnal year 5. This paper plots the salient information on a suggested timeline for a 12-year coregency and demonstrates that such a lengthy period of co-rule can be embraced only if one accepts the unlikely scenario that Akhenaton began the usurpation of his fatherís cartouches six years before the death of Amenhotep III.



Part of a painted sandstone scene dating to the first five years of Akhenaten's reign from Karnak (64.197.1).
The cloak and the scene looks like a part of the Heb sed festival.
Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's very interesting! Thanks for sharing that.

The only thing that made me even consider a longer co-regency is the apparent age of Tiye at her death - assuming the mummy of the elder lady is hers. The mummy is described as being of a "middle aged woman" But with the ca 38 years under Amenhotep III, 14 more after his death and possibly a very young age when she married, this may all work out.

I wonder if the rise to the throne could mean Akhenaten turned 16 in that year? Then he would have been born in ca year 22. He would have been one of the younger children of Amenhotep and Tiye?

The inscriptions from Soleb are interesting. The changes only in the later constructed scenes is something that would point to to version IV as you mention.

Very Happy That's good enough for me for the time being.
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Achnatom
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I wondered if there could be aconnection to one of Amenhotep III's festivals. Amenhotep III had festivals in years 30, 34, and 37. Maybe he had another one planned for year 40?


Nicholas Reeves claims that Akhenaten organised his Heb-sed to honour his father and to unify him with the Aten. He says that Akhenaten built all temples for the Aten in Thebes as preparations for the festival. If he identified his father with the Aten (like Amenhotep III did during his later life-time), Akhenaten would be a true divine Pharaoh, a real son of the sun disk. It could even be possible that Akhenaten changed his name during the festivities. It would be a logical choice, especially to dissociate him from and to oppose against the power of the Amen-priests he seemed to have hated so much.
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GregoryPare
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how new they look. It's a piece of history!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregoryPare wrote:
I love how new they look. It's a piece of history!


Let me first use the opportunity to welcome our newest member "GregoryPare; a cordial welcome from me (and from others too, I am sure of that!) here at Egyptian Dreams (or ED as we call it)!.

Don't you think they really might have looked like that?

Richard, aka
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the evidence for the claim that the temple was just begun before the first sed-festival?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Achnatom has stated:

Nicholas Reeves claims that Akhenaten organised his Heb-sed to honour his father and to unify him with the Aten. He says that Akhenaten built all temples for the Aten in Thebes as preparations for the festival.

Would it be possible for you to state which Reeves' book?
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Achnatom
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Would it be possible for you to state which Reeves' book?


Akhenaten, Egypt's False prophet
(Thames and Hudson 2001)

Not everybody considers this a great book, partly due to its commercial succes, but I think it's one of the standard (popular) works about Amarna.
Reeves bundles all information and various theories about Akhenaten, his entourage, his religion and Akhetaten and tries to filter out the best theories and get rid of the 'rubbish'. For example: he's one of the believers that Smenkhkara and Nefertiti is one and the same person, but he's definitely not a supporter of the 'Nefertiti falls into disgrace' - theory.
I think it's a book that opens discussions, but hey, that's what Egyptology is all about :-)
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
What is the evidence for the claim that the temple was just begun before the first sed-festival?

Jocelyn Gohary`s : Akhenaten's Sed-festival at Karnak. - London [u.a.] : Kegan Paul, 1992. - ISBN : 0-7103-0380-7. - X, 238 p., CX p. - [Studies in Egyptology] is still the fundamental work on the topic, all at the time (1992) available sources are listed and evaluated.

The inscriptions of the preserved / reconstructed scenes name the places and buildings which served as stage for the rituals. Since they all are individual buildings of the Temple of the Aten at Karnak, he should have been built before the Sed festival.

In the scenes of the Sed Festival none of the daughters of the royal couple appears. Another clear indication of an origin very early in the reign of Amenhotep IV.

Lutz
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dkessler
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the meaning of the word "Sed"? And is it related to the Jewish "seider"?

They both involved the drinking of four goblets of wine.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkessler wrote:
What is the meaning of the word "Sed"? And is it related to the Jewish "seider"?

They both involved the drinking of four goblets of wine.


Try this:

Quote:
The Sed festival (also known as Heb Sed or Feast of the Tail) was an ancient Egyptian ceremony which was held to celebrate the continued rule of a pharaoh. The name derives from the name of an Egyptian wolf god, one of whose names was Wepwawet or Sed.


^ Shaw, Ian. Exploring Ancient Egypt. Oxford University Press. 2003. ISBN 0-19-511678-X. p53

from WIKIPEDIA:
[url]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sed_festival[/url]

Regards, Stuart
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dkessler
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible that the Jewish seider (or seder) takes its name from the Egyptian ceremony?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think it unlikely to have anything to do with judaism. amen the christian chant sounds like amun but has nothing in common with the word. i shjould think the same principle exists for the heb sed ceremony and that jewish custom you mention.
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