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KV 21 and mummies KV21A and B
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burlgirl
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One last thing...
Im still hoping that someone can post a link to pictures of the 2 KV21 mummies. Id like to see their faces, but also, Im curious about the club feet that the report says they have.

I just have such a hard time believing all these club feet. Club Med it wasnt, but Club Foot!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The KV 21 mummies are in pieces. They were severely damaged.

Here's a picture of Dr Donald Ryan inspecting them:
http://www.plu.edu/~ryandp/21mum.html

I don't know if there are old photographs of these mummies before they were shred to pieces. I do think the damage is fairly recent.

Donald Ryan's comments about KV 21 can be found here:
http://www.plu.edu/~ryandp/egypt.html
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are the pictures of the KV 21 mummies:



Apparently KV 21A "lost her head", but KV 21B is a bit more complete.

The mummies are both said to be 25-40 years old. So that's quite an age range.

If KV 21A is really Ankhesenamen then possibly the other mummy is Meritaten? Not something that will be easy to prove unless they can do better with the DNA sequencing or at least can look at the mitochondrial DNA.

And here's what the Theban Mapping Project has to say about it:
http://www.thebanmappingproject.com/sites/browse_tomb_835.html
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stephaniep
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible to get a high resolution picture of the head of KV21B?
Thanks
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not seen any high res images.
But if anyone else can get thier hands on one ...
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who are the parents for KV21B?



assumptions for clarity and discussion only
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like there is not enough info.

I personally do not think KV35YL is Nefertiti. Notice that fetus 1 and 2 have allels 13 on the second marker and 35 on the fourth.
That means that the babies cannot have inherited those from Akhenaten and KV35YL=Nefertiti if Tut and Ankhesenamen are full brothers and sisters.

I think that KV35YL is not Nefertiti and that Nefertiti is the contributor of those allels in the babies that cannot come from Akhenaten and Tutankhamen.

Pure speculation: if KV 21B is Meritaten, then from KV 21 A and B we get a DNA profile for their mother (assuming KV 55 is Akhenaten) which includes allel 16 on the first marker, (6,13) on the second, 17 on the third, 35 on the fourth, 8 on the fifth, 10 on the sixth, and no info on the last 2.

Which I think points to someone not associated with the royal family, nor with the Yuya/Tuya clan.

It's hard to say who the KV21 women are. The possible link between KV21A and the fetusses does suggest this may be Ankhesenamun. And that makes me wonder if the other one is her sister. But you're right that it could also be Kiya or even Tey.

I have no idea when these women were buried. Is this a cache tomb? Why were they buried together? Was that the original intention, or just a double burial where there may not necessarily a family relation between the two?

I think mitochondrial DNA may help sort some of that out?
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Seems like there is not enough info.

That will be the promise of next year's project... and then when there is still not enough info- it will be the promise for the next. Ha!

anneke wrote:
I personally do not think KV35YL is Nefertiti. Notice that fetus 1 and 2 have allels 13 on the second marker and 35 on the fourth.
That means that the babies cannot have inherited those from Akhenaten and KV35YL=Nefertiti if Tut and Ankhesenamen are full brothers and sisters.

Maybe I am not understanding this system of markers well enough, but would the allels 13 on the second marker and 35 on the fourth for fetuses 1 and 2 not be simply represent a throw back to Thuya? >>> Tiye >>> Akhenaten/Nefertiti >>> Tutankhamun/Ankesenamun >>> Fetuses?

anneke wrote:
I think that KV35YL is not Nefertiti and that Nefertiti is the contributor of those allels in the babies that cannot come from Akhenaten and Tutankhamen.

Why can they not come from Akhenaten and Tutankhamun?

anneke wrote:
Pure speculation: if KV 21B is Meritaten, then from KV 21 A and B we get a DNA profile for their mother (assuming KV 55 is Akhenaten) which includes allel 16 on the first marker, (6,13) on the second, 17 on the third, 35 on the fourth, 8 on the fifth, 10 on the sixth, and no info on the last 2.

bold my addition...

It is the 17 that I find interesting, it shows up nowhere prior in the proposed line. Of course it could be a throw back to even further than Thuya/Yuya which might make KV21A and KV21B full sisters, if not then perhaps different mothers? (hence the Kiya [or whoever] suggestion)

anneke wrote:
Which I think points to someone not associated with the royal family, nor with the Yuya/Tuya clan.

I'll bet Hawass has Kiya somewhere in the mix, he has always had a soft spot for her it seems (as Tuts mom) - even if it turns out Kiya is a just a 'pet name' for someone already (otherwise) identified, who knows...

Ahhh... fun!
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Ok, I see that you are saying. The 10 on column 6 for KV21A and the 17 on column 3 for KV21B have no predeterminator and unless inherited from a source in the line pre Yuya/Thuya (do we know how many generations can be applied? - I read nothing about this in the report) then the source must be from outwith - ok, I get that (now)

I see the relationship KV21A to the fetuses and perhaps the 13 (column 3) and 35 (column 5) could be explained as a throw-back, but what you are saying about Nefertiti being the external source makes more sense. So, yes... (for now at least) KV35YL cannot equal Nefertiti, but it is more likely that she be the (not shown) mother of KV21A and B

So perhaps Hawass will have his way and KV35YL will turn out to be Kiya, we shall see...

Thx for putting up with my verbiage, I really am trying to get my simple mind around all this?!
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stephaniep
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't they tell of the mummy has had kids or not? KV35YL doesn't look like she's had many.

I have always thought that Nefertiti was the mother of Tut, however. There's a gap in the princess line at just the right age and they look so much alike that the funerary equipment Tut got from her was mistaken for decades as being a representation of him. I refer to the harpooner with breasts especially. Late Amarna art was quite realistic. She never said who her parents were, and she was the heiress, so she could just as likely be a renamed daughter of Amenhotep III, or just never showed up on found artwork. The beautiful one has come seems an unlikely name for a baby, but not a comely teenager. Ankhesenpaaten never said she was the daughter of a king after marriage either. If the damage to the face was done before death, this is the sort of end a beautiful woman who was hated would get.

I thought KV35YL would more likely be Meritaten, due to apparent age and bald head, although Nefertiti was likely bald under that cap. It's too bad they never tested the boy, I do wonder if he's the missing semenkare.
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burlgirl
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the pictures and the info. This is very fascinating.

It's too bad there is no 3D facial reconstruction of KV55 (I just can't yet call him Akenaten - maybe I'll be convinced sometime, but not yet!!). It would help to have one of the AIII mummy, as well. I'm with Neseret, I have often wondered if that's really Akhenaten. If he is, that still leaves Smenkara as a viable option for KV55. It seems like such a mystery to me that Hawass and group hasn't considered this, or at least mentioned that they considered it.
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stephaniep
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The insult of the burial does tend to lean toward Akhenaten. The guy with breasts, buried like a girl and with a lot of cast off junk and with no name, under a leak.
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herper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that there is a 3D portrait of the KV55 mummy. I will check if it was in KMT, or one of the cable channels shows from the last yr or so.
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burlgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks herper!!
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RobertStJames
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephaniep wrote:
The insult of the burial does tend to lean toward Akhenaten. The guy with breasts, buried like a girl and with a lot of cast off junk and with no name, under a leak.


Yes, and it would suggest a relationship to the KV35YL mummy that was left unwrapped on the tomb floor, face and chest smashed in, with the crossed arm torn off.
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