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Yuya related to Amenhotep?
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Sobek
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, anneke

It's all good, especially;
Possible Yuya - Amenhotep connection via Thutmose.
The number of Tutankaten's ancestor's.
Possible Yey - Tiaa connection.

A Yey - Tiaa connection pertains to The Sixth Allele section.

<---Is Yuya the Uncle of Amenhotep?
<
<---(outline)
<Introduction
<
<--In genetic kinship analysis terms this question becomes "Do KV46m and KV35m share close ancestors?" KV46m and KV35m share 6 alleles at 5 positions. These are D7-6,15; D2-27; D21-34; D18-22; CSF-9. There are three reasons for allele sharing; error, coincidence, or kinship.
<
<Error
<Coincidence
<Kinship
<--Sibling Allele Sharing
<--Shared Allele Position
<--Shared Allele Transmission
<The Sixth Allele
<Conclusion
<References
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just looking at the DNA again.
Something else interesting came up: with 16 alleles we expect 8 to come from each parent, and further tracing would be expected to give 4 alleles from each of the 4 grandparents. Assuming no one's related.

But if you trace KV35EL back to Amenhotep III and Tiye, you get 8 alleles as expected , but she shares 6 with her grand-mother Tuya (4 with Yuya)

For KV55, we see 8 shared with Amenhotep III, 9 with Tiye, 5 with Yuya and 6 with Tuya.

I would have expected Yuya to show more shared alleles considering he shares several with Amenhotep III, so I was surprised to see the higher than expected # alleles shared with Tuya.

Not sure what it means? I have seen theories before (can't remember where) that Tuya may have been a grand-daughter of Amenhotep II?

I happened to be reading a book about Queen Joanna of Naples, and looking at the family trees you see a lot of cousins and other relatives marrying each other. I'm wondering if the Egyptian royal family may have been very much like the European royal families. It was really not acceptable for a royal to marry a non-royal. There are cases of marganatic marriages, but a marriage to a non-royal would almost automatically mean that any offspring would be ineligible for the throne.
I wonder if the family trees of the Egyptians were as much or more (in case of brother-sister matches) kept within certain "royally correct" families.

Just a thought...
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Sobek
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parent 1 > a,a
Parent 2 > b,b

Child > a,b

Grandchild > a,? (50%) or b,? (50)%
? allele from unknown parent 3 or parent 4
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Sobek
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<---Is Yuya the Uncle of Amenhotep?
<
<Introduction
<
<--In genetic kinship analysis terms this question becomes "Do KV46m and KV35m share close ancestors?" KV46m and KV35m share 6 alleles at 5 positions according to Hawass et al, 2010. These are D7-6,15; D2-27; D21-34; D18-22; CSF-9. There are three reasons for allele sharing; error, coincidence, or kinship.
<
<Error
<
<--My estimate of the error rate for the DNA data in Hawass et al ,2010 is no more than 3 of 148, or about 1 in 50 maximum. In order for error to explain 6 shared alleles, at least 6 alleles must be incorrectly identified. The probability of this is about one in a million.
<
<Coincidence
<Kinship
<--Sibling Allele Sharing
<--Shared Allele Position
<--Shared Allele Transmission
<The Sixth Allele
<Conclusion
<
<--The parents of KV46m are likely the grandparents of KV35m. These mummies share 6 of 16 alleles. The relative probabilities that this allele sharing is explained by Kinship, Error, Coincidence are 90%; 9%; 1%. William C. Hayes as far back as the 1950s proposed that Yuya (KV46m) is the uncle of Amenhotep III (KV35m?). The DNA data published in JAMA by Hawass et al strongly supports this.
<
<References
<
<--Hawass et al, 2010
<--Phizackerley, 2010
<--Hayes, 1959
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Sobek
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

<---Is Yuya the Uncle of Amenhotep?
<
<Introduction
<
<--In genetic kinship analysis terms this question becomes "Do KV46m and KV35m share close ancestors?" KV46m and KV35m share 6 alleles at 5 positions according to Hawass et al, 2010. These are D7-6,15; D2-27; D21-34; D18-22; CSF-9. There are three reasons for allele sharing; error, coincidence, or kinship.
<
<Error
<
<--My estimate of the error rate for the DNA data in Hawass et al, 2010 is no more than 3 of 148, or about 1 in 50 maximum. In order for error to explain 6 shared alleles, at least 6 alleles must be incorrectly identified. The probability of this is about one in a million.
<
<Coincidence
<
<--Phizackerley, 2010 refers to a Heinrich Heine University website which has allele frequency data from modern population samples, including some from the Nile valley. Using this data, the incidence of alleles in the source population (separation from the sample, less than 500 kilometers and 3500 years) can be estimated. 2 of the shared alleles (D2-27, CSF-9) are scarce (5% to 2% of the population). The other 4 alleles are rare (less than 2%). The chance of all 6 alleles appearing in one sample by coincidence are about one in a million. The chance of this occurring twice in a sample of ten is less than one in a billion.
<
<Kinship
<--Sibling Allele Sharing
<--Shared Allele Position
<--Shared Allele Transmission
<
<The Sixth Allele
<
<--A parent-child link from a sibling of KV46m to KV35m can only account for 5 of the 6 shared alleles. There must be another reason for 1 of the 2 alleles at D7. Again, the possible reasons for this are error, coincidence, or kinship. With regard to kinship, there is an old historical hypothesis that Yey, father of Yuya is a sibling of Tiaa, mother of Amenhotep.
<
<Conclusion
<
<--The parents of KV46m are likely the grandparents of KV35m. These mummies share 6 of 16 alleles. The relative likelyhood that this allele sharing is explained by Kinship, Error, Coincidence are 90%; 9%; 1%. William C. Hayes as far back as the 1950s proposed that Yuya (KV46m) is the uncle of Amenhotep III (KV35m?). The DNA data published in JAMA by Hawass et al strongly supports this.
<
<References
<
<--Hawass et al, 2010
<--Phizackerley, 2010
<--Hayes, 1959
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Sobek
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<---Is Yuya the Uncle of Amenhotep?
<
<Introduction
<Error
<Coincidence
<Kinship
<
<--Possible kin relationships (descending order of closeness) are parent-child, siblings, grandparent-child, and (aunt/)uncle-(neice/)nephew. A parent-child relationship is excluded because there are no shared alleles at three positions (D13, D16, and FGA). Siblings will be discussed in the next section. Grandparent-child has a less than 22% chance of sharing 5 alleles, 1 at each of 5 positions. Grandparent-child is unlikely based on historical information.
<
<--Sibling Allele Sharing
<
<----The number of alleles shared between full siblings can be assessed with a 16th order Pascal distribution. Siblings have a 12% chance of sharing 6 alleles. In order for KV46m to be the uncle of KV35m, the parent (of KV35m) sibling (unknown) must share between 5 and 13 alleles with the non-parent (KV46m) sibling. The chance of this is 96%.
<
<--Shared Allele Position
<--Shared Allele Transmission
<The Sixth Allele
<Conclusion
<References
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Sobek
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<---Is Yuya the Uncle of Amenhotep?
<
<Introduction
<Error
<Coincidence
<Kinship
<--Sibling Allele Sharing
<--Shared Allele Position
<
<----In addition to sharing an appropriate number of alleles, the shared alleles must be in particular positions. In positions that KV46m and KV35m share an allele, KV46m and the parent sibling must share one or two alleles. In other positions, KV46m and the sibling must share zero or one allele. There are at least 500, possibly more than 1000, combinations of shared alleles in the necessary positions to transmit 5 alleles to KV35m. The chance of this is about 1%
<
<--Shared Allele Transmission
<
<----If KV46m and the sibling/parent (of KV36m) share appropriate alleles these alleles must be transmitted to KV35m. For the 5 positions that share 1 allele, there is a 100% chance of transmission if the siblings share two alleles, and a 50% chance if they share one, or about a 75% chance overall. For the 3 positions that don't share alleles, the chance is 100% if zero alleles are shared, 50% if one allele is shared, again about 75% overall. The chance of transmitting the observed number of alleles is .75^8, or about 10%. Overall, the chance of KV46m sharing 5 alleles, 1 at each of 5 positions, with KV35m because they are uncle/nephew is about 1 in 1000.
<
<The Sixth Allele
<Conclusion
<References
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waenre
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Sobek wrote:

<--The parents of KV46m are likely the grandparents of KV35m. These mummies share 6 of 16 alleles. The relative probabilities that this allele sharing is explained by Kinship, Error, Coincidence are 90%; 9%; 1%. William C. Hayes as far back as the 1950s proposed that Yuya (KV46m) is the uncle of Amenhotep III (KV35m?). The DNA data published in JAMA by Hawass et al strongly supports this.


Comment:

I find it interesting that the early analysis seemingly purely based on similarities of names, titles and possible association with Akhmin is now back.

Hayes writes in Scepter of Egypt about Yey -> Yuya -> Aye as grandfather - father - son.

He does mention that Amenhotep III and Tiye may have been first cousins.

Some thought (which may not affect you article):

I had been skeptical of the importance of those titles, but it may be that there are more clues about kinskip than we now understand. These titles and their implications could have been completely obvious to the ancient egyptians. How many more of these hints are there that we just don't know about.

How far back would this line go (assuming for a moment this is actually real)?

If Yey was really the father of Mutemwia and Yuya, then could he have been a brother of Queen Tiaa?





Freethinker is way better at this, but this is a tree. Clearly I had to make some assumptions. Clearly some think Tut is the son of Akhenaten and a sister (or cousin) and the assumption that Yuya is Mutemwia's brother cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt either. But the tree is consistent with the DNA info (but not the only possible ineterpretation)

But if we look at the possible impact of such a secondary line of descent, then we see that for instance Tutankhamen may have had
2 parents (of course)
2 grandparents
4 great-grandparents (should be 8 )
6 second-great-grandparents (should be 16)


I think another possibility is that Yuya is actually a minor member of the royal family himself. He could be a half brother or cousin of Tuthmosis IV.


Your proposed family tree is intriguing. Have you given any thought to the possibility that the interfamily relationship may extend before Amenhotep II?

Amenhotep II's mother was Meryte-Hapshepsut, who I believe was a daughter a Huy, a temple priestess. Could she have been related to the Akhim family of Yey?

Has the mummy of Tiaa been found, and what information is available about her? For some reason, I think that the two families' connections go back several generations, though I'm no expert.

Allen Drury in his book, A God Against the Gods, (historical fiction) made Yuya the brother of Mutemwiya. I can't remember Drury extended the family relationship back any farther, since it's been so long since I read the book.

Was there any dna data in the JAMA study re dna of Hatshepsut and either Yuya or Thuya? Perhaps the Akhim family derived from Hatshepsut's side of the royal family.

Thanks in advance.

waenre
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:51 pm    Post subject: Yuya related to Amenhotep Reply with quote

By "Hatshepsut's side of the family" I meant her mother's side, the Tao side.

Sorry for not clarifying in the post.

Thanks in advance.

waenre
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read somewhere (can't figure out where) that Yey, the possible father of Yuya, was married to a woman named Tey.

If this is correct, what glyphs are used to write Tey in Ancient Egyptian?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, but names are interesting. Yey and Tey were married, and their son was Yuya. He married woman with name similar to his mother's name - Thuya. And Thuya and Yuya had a daughter Tiye. Things are even more interesting: there was a Queen Tia.

All very similar female name - Tey, Tiaa, Thuya, Tiye.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Sobek wrote:

<--The parents of KV46m are likely the grandparents of KV35m. These mummies share 6 of 16 alleles. The relative probabilities that this allele sharing is explained by Kinship, Error, Coincidence are 90%; 9%; 1%. William C. Hayes as far back as the 1950s proposed that Yuya (KV46m) is the uncle of Amenhotep III (KV35m?). The DNA data published in JAMA by Hawass et al strongly supports this.


Comment:

I find it interesting that the early analysis seemingly purely based on similarities of names, titles and possible association with Akhmin is now back.

Hayes writes in Scepter of Egypt about Yey -> Yuya -> Aye as grandfather - father - son.

He does mention that Amenhotep III and Tiye may have been first cousins.

Some thought (which may not affect you article):

I had been skeptical of the importance of those titles, but it may be that there are more clues about kinskip than we now understand. These titles and their implications could have been completely obvious to the ancient egyptians. How many more of these hints are there that we just don't know about.

How far back would this line go (assuming for a moment this is actually real)?

If Yey was really the father of Mutemwia and Yuya, then could he have been a brother of Queen Tiaa?





Freethinker is way better at this, but this is a tree. Clearly I had to make some assumptions. Clearly some think Tut is the son of Akhenaten and a sister (or cousin) and the assumption that Yuya is Mutemwia's brother cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt either. But the tree is consistent with the DNA info (but not the only possible ineterpretation)

But if we look at the possible impact of such a secondary line of descent, then we see that for instance Tutankhamen may have had
2 parents (of course)
2 grandparents
4 great-grandparents (should be 8 )
6 second-great-grandparents (should be 16)


I think another possibility is that Yuya is actually a minor member of the royal family himself. He could be a half brother or cousin of Tuthmosis IV.



Anneke,

Your proposed family tree is intriguing. Have you given any thought to the possibility that the interfamily relationship may extend before Amenhotep II?

Amenhotep II's mother was Meryte-Hapshepsut, who I believe was a daughter a Huy, a temple priestess. Could she have been related to the Akhim family of Yey?

Has the mummy of Tiaa been found, and what information is available about her? For some reason, I think that the two families' connections go back several generations, though I'm no expert.

Allen Drury in his book, A God Against the Gods, (historical fiction) made Yuya the brother of Mutemwiya. I can't remember Drury extended the family relationship back any farther, since it's been so long since I read the book.

Was there any dna data in the JAMA study re dna of Hatshepsut and either Yuya or Thuya? Perhaps the Akhim family derived from Hatshepsut's side of the royal family (Tao).

I just finished reading Christine El Mahdy's Tutankhamen the Life and Death of the Boy King, where on page 160 she mentions that Aldred suggests that Yey (Yuya's father) was the brother of Meryetre-Hatshepsut, wife of Tuthmose III and mother of Amenhotep II.

I'm not sure if this is possible in terms of the timeline of the people involved. If so, then the family from Akhmim would be providing wives to the kings for some time, and they could be "almost a parallel royal family". I'd think it'd be more likely that Yey's father was the brother of Meryetre-Hatshepsut, but since I'm not familiar with the timeline, I can't be sure.

Given your knowledge of the people and timeline, what do you think?

El Mahdy further states that Thuya was a minor wife of of Tuthmose IV (due to her title of King's concubine, or should it be king's ornament), who after the death of Tuthmose IV was permitted to marry Yuya. What do you think?

Thanks in advance.

waenre
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobManske wrote:
freeTinker wrote:
It would be real nice if (rather than restricting access and publishing findings for vanity) it were to be made open and available online to ALL AND SUNDRY (imo it is that important). Perhaps 'egyptology' as a discipline will move more towards the audit of findings- this is a job for the mathematically inclined and there are millions out there in the cyberworld. Just keep on refining and improving the software


I hope you're not suggesting that the people who actually funded the research and the principal investigators who actually who did the work should immediately turn over all their data so people who contributed nothing to the projects could tear into the data like swarming piranhas. There is no possibility of progress in such a undisciplined approach.

I also hope you're not suggesting that subsequent publications by the PI's is done for vanity's sake. Decency requires that an interval of time must be given to these people to present their findings and their interpretations to peer review and then publish their works so the proper recognition and attribution can be given. The PI's are responsible for assembling teams of contributing experts such as "the mathematically inclined" to assist in the interpretation and publication of the results. This is true in all areas of research, not just Egyptology. That's how actual progress is made. That is what is important.

The research teams, the people who have contributed the funds and/or labor have a rightful claim to their research and the protection of their findings.

Please tell me you're not trying to piggy back for free on someone else's work. Please tell me I misunderstood you.

Bob


Presumably you also feel the same about inscriptions and reliefs? I'm not sure how much progress we'd make if that happened. The truth is that those how pay should get the opportunity to have their say first and to grab the headlines if what they say is correct, but thereafter the raw data needs to be in the public domain.

Crucially one of the things we need is to understand statistic frequencies of alleles in various ancient Egyptian populations, royal and non-royal, various periods etc. And obviously mtDNA and haplogrouping. There are established forensic tables for bones which allow a researcher to, say, estimate the height of an indvidual from the length of his femur. To get value out of the limited DNA which can be extracted from ancient mummies, we need similar tables for DNA. Only if insitutions publish the data can such statistical studies take place and they are the real plums in this research.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waenre wrote:


El Mahdy further states that Thuya was a minor wife of of Tuthmose IV (due to her title of King's concubine, or should it be king's ornament), who after the death of Tuthmose IV was permitted to marry Yuya. What do you think?


The "Wild Bull Hunt Scarab" inscribed in the AIII's Year 2 already shows Tiye as the Great Royal Wife. I think it should be quite strange to elect a baby-girl for this position.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
waenre wrote:


El Mahdy further states that Thuya was a minor wife of of Tuthmose IV (due to her title of King's concubine, or should it be king's ornament), who after the death of Tuthmose IV was permitted to marry Yuya. What do you think?


The "Wild Bull Hunt Scarab" inscribed in the AIII's Year 2 already shows Tiye as the Great Royal Wife. I think it should be quite strange to elect a baby-girl for this position.


I think the same. Tiye would have been either of early child-bearing age or atleast close to puberty, maybe 9 or 10.

And does the title "King`s Ornament" always point to a royal concubine or minor wife?

Donald Redford states in his "Akhenaten" several times that numerous relatives of the king like sisters, cousins,aunts and even mothers or nurses of the foreign children of the royal nursery were called "King`s Ornaments".
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