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food for thought
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: food for thought Reply with quote

There is an interesting paper created by Kate Phizackerley (hope I got it right) on her "News from the Valley of the Kings" blog about the whole DNA issue.
A bit brainteasing, but well worth it.
Hope you enjoy it Very Happy !

Opinions, please!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the link to the paper
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the paper, it was interesting. I've given it some thought beyond my initial reaction, which was that the simplest explanation of the data is that KV55 married a full blooded sister.

What I think Kate Phizackerley (hope YOU got it right) meant when she said her family tree is the simplest explanation of the data was not necessarily just in terms of the genetic data. I have to think her analysis of the genetic data does support the possibility of KV35YL as a niece of KV55 is right. She probably right, she at least knows more about genetics than I do. Smile I think the point is that her family tree is supported by the genetic data AND it requires the least amount of change in the established history. It doesn't require any new marriages that we don't already know about.

I'd really want more genetic data before I'd become very attached to the idea that Nefertiti is a close relative and that both she and Akhenaten are related to Thuya and Tuya.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree with you. I think it is well possible that Nefertiti was related to the royal family via the Tuya/Aye lineage, but of course it is yet early days.

But if one thinks about the implications it would have if the proposed relationships were true, one gets dizzy. The Amarnan family tree would probably turn into a forest, and one could fill a whole book just by stating all the relationships between the family members Very Happy !
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd really want more genetic data before I'd become very attached to the idea that Nefertiti is a close relative and that both she and Akhenaten are related to Thuya and Yuya.

Quote:
I think it is well possible that Nefertiti was related to the royal family via the Tuya/Aye lineage, but of course it is yet early days.


It is important to distinguish between the DNA data, the genetic kinship analysis, and other biological, archaeological, and historical information.

Hawass et al,2010 provides DNA data from 11 mummies.

Hawass et al,2010 shows by genetic kinship analysis that a nearly certain (99.99% + probability) lineage exists between the KV 46 female mummy and the two KV 62 fetuses.

Phizackerley,2010 (using DNA data from Hawass et al,2010) shows by genetic kinship analysis that a second lineage between the KV 46 female and the KV62 fetuses very probably (99.9% +) exists. This second lineage does not run through any of the sampled mummies, except for possibly the ones from KV 21.

Whether Nefertiti (and Ay) are part of this second lineage cannot be shown by DNA data and genetic kinship analysis, and is much less certain than its existence. DNA doesn't come with names.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sobek wrote:

Phizackerley,2010 (using DNA data from Hawass et al,2010) shows by genetic kinship analysis that a second lineage between the KV 46 female and the KV62 fetuses very probably (99.9% +) exists. This second lineage does not run through any of the sampled mummies, except for possibly the ones from KV 21.


Leaving open the possibility that KV21a is the daughter of Nefertiti, whose body will not have been located under this scenario.

Zahi and the et als are running out of room on this one. Tut's mother is one of Tiye's daughters. Whoever she is, it's hard to believe she would not have been depicted on any public statuary or tomb in favor of a "Nefertiti" who contributed a mere daughter to the next generation of royals.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a great paper by Kate. The argument for a second line of descent seems pretty obvious after reading her paper, and fits in with the theory that Nefertiti was Ay's daughter.
I haven't gone over to the Zahi-side yet and still think the KV55 mummy is more probably Smenkhkare (I just can't dismiss all those people dating his age to the 20s...) which could indeed point to Meritaten being Tut's mother. I'm suppose Kate's argument that the YL could be Akhenaten's daughter [i]or[/i]sister, idk. It seems possible, but then begs the question as to why the JAMA paper is so emphatic about the YL being the daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, never mentioning the possibility (as far as I could see) that she could be their grand-daughter.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sorry but KV35YL cannot be Meritaten. Whether you believe KV55 to be Akhenaten, Smenkhare or [another], the fact remains that the DNA shows KV35YL to be daughter of Aiii and Tiye. It is not a case of the alleles being similar they need to match exactly. I had inquired about Meritaten possibly being daughter of Aiii and Tiye (which I believed was an old posit) but I am assured this is absolutely not the case

The moment you introduce a daughter of Akhenaten (as KV55) and Nefertiti (not shown in DNA population), you introduce Nefertiti's DNA and this simply would not work with the given facts-

Surely KV35YL must be recognized as daughter of KV55 and KV35EL, and that would limit the options (from who is known) tell me if I have it wrong...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's exactly how I read it too.

Tutankhamen is the son of a daughter of Tiye and A3.

And his father (KV55) is also the brother of his wife.

So, really no names can be filled in yet, because there is more than one option for both 'mum' and 'dad'.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phizackerley,2010 created two hypothetical allele profiles for use in her genetic kinship analysis which she chose to call "Akhenaten" and "Nefertiti". In hindsight, this choice of names was unfortunate since it may result in confusion between the allele profiles and the historical persons of the same name. I will call the Nefertiti profile "the other parent" and the Akhenaten profile "the other child of KV35m and KV35EL"("the other child" for short).
Quote:
It is not a case of the alleles being similar they need to match exactly.


By match do you mean "shared" alleles? In order for two individuals to be in a first order (parent/child) relationship, they must share or "match" at least one allele at each position (8 positions in Hawass et al,2010:6 positions in Phizackerley,2010). More than the minimum number is possible but not necessary. If two individuals meet this condition they may, not must, be parent/child. Which is parent and which is child must be determined from other data. An allele which is unknown, or has no data, is shared by, or matches, everything.

I seem to be the only one confused by sudden switches between DNA data, genetic kinship analysis, historical pedigrees, and other kinds of information. So call me stupid... If anyone can answer the following questions please try to use small words and short sentences...
Quote:
The moment you introduce a daughter of Akhenaten (as KV55) and Nefertiti (not shown in DNA population), you introduce Nefertiti's DNA and this simply would not work with the given facts


I am completely lost by this one. I think Nefertiti really existed, she had DNA (at least while living), and was closely related to some of the people in the family trees of Hawass...and Phizackerley... What exactly doesn't work?
Quote:
Tutankhamen is the son of a daughter of Tiye and A3.


Does this mean KV62m may be the child of KV35YL who may be the child of KV35EL and KV35m? If so, I agree. KV35YL may also be the child of "the other parent" and "the other child"(see Phizackerley,2010). Both alternatives are possible, but not equally plausible. The alternatives are mutually exclusive, and the genetic kinship analysis cannot determine which is so. Other kinds of information may help with this. Well, during the Amarna Period, maybe not.
Quote:
...his father (KV55) is also the brother of his wife.


KV55 may be sibling to KV35YL? Yes. KV55 also may be uncle to KV35YL(Phizackerley). I think age-at-death and chronology might help sort this out (now there's a scary thought).
Quote:
Surely KV35YL must be recognized as daughter of KV55 and KV35EL,


Why? Certainly she may be their child. She may alternatively be a child of "the other parent" and "the other child". Other possiblities probably exist, as well. Does anyone know compelling reasons to favor one alternative over the others?
Quote:
but KV35YL cannot be Meritaten.


Does this mean the KV35YL mummy cannot be the person "Meritaten", or the KV35YL mummy cannot be the child of "the other parent" and "the other child"? In either case, she cannot be for what reason?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sobek wrote:
Phizackerley,2010 created two hypothetical allele profiles for use in her genetic kinship analysis which she chose to call "Akhenaten" and "Nefertiti". In hindsight, this choice of names was unfortunate since it may result in confusion between the allele profiles and the historical persons of the same name. I will call the Nefertiti profile "the other parent" and the Akhenaten profile "the other child of KV35m and KV35EL"("the other child" for short).
Quote:
It is not a case of the alleles being similar they need to match exactly.


By match do you mean "shared" alleles? In order for two individuals to be in a first order (parent/child) relationship, they must share or "match" at least one allele at each position (8 positions in Hawass et al,2010:6 positions in Phizackerley,2010). More than the minimum number is possible but not necessary. If two individuals meet this condition they may, not must, be parent/child. Which is parent and which is child must be determined from other data. An allele which is unknown, or has no data, is shared by, or matches, everything.

I seem to be the only one confused by sudden switches between DNA data, genetic kinship analysis, historical pedigrees, and other kinds of information. So call me stupid... If anyone can answer the following questions please try to use small words and short sentences...
Quote:
The moment you introduce a daughter of Akhenaten (as KV55) and Nefertiti (not shown in DNA population), you introduce Nefertiti's DNA and this simply would not work with the given facts


I am completely lost by this one. I think Nefertiti really existed, she had DNA (at least while living), and was closely related to some of the people in the family trees of Hawass...and Phizackerley... What exactly doesn't work?


I'm with you. If Nefertiti is the neice of Tiye (KV35EL) then half of her DNA would be from the same gene pool as everyone else we're talking about. Therefore you have a good chance of the same alleles showing up in the next generation.

Quote:
Tutankhamen is the son of a daughter of Tiye and A3.


Does this mean KV62m may be the child of KV35YL who may be the child of KV35EL and KV35m? If so, I agree. KV35YL may also be the child of "the other parent" and "the other child"(see Phizackerley,2010). Both alternatives are possible, but not equally plausible. The alternatives are mutually exclusive, and the genetic kinship analysis cannot determine which is so. Other kinds of information may help with this. Well, during the Amarna Period, maybe not.
Quote:
...his father (KV55) is also the brother of his wife.


KV55 may be sibling to KV35YL? Yes. KV55 also may be uncle to KV35YL(Phizackerley). I think age-at-death and chronology might help sort this out (now there's a scary thought).
Quote:
Surely KV35YL must be recognized as daughter of KV55 and KV35EL,


Why? Certainly she may be their child. She may alternatively be a child of "the other parent" and "the other child". Other possiblities probably exist, as well. Does anyone know compelling reasons to favor one alternative over the others?
Quote:
but KV35YL cannot be Meritaten.


Does this mean the KV35YL mummy cannot be the person "Meritaten", or the KV35YL mummy cannot be the child of "the other parent" and "the other child"? In either case, she cannot be for what reason?[/quote]

In Phizackerley's positing, she shows possible alleles for Akhenaten (as NOT KV55) and Nefertiti, and you can see how one of their daughters could produce Tut's DNA. Because of the inbreeding it's easy. With many questioning the identification of KV55 mummy with Akhenaten, and positing an ID of Smenkhkare instead, the simplest explanation as to Tut's mother's ID is Meritaten, who we know was married to Smenkhkare. Instead, because of the ironclad statement of Zahi that the Younger Lady must be Akhenaten's sister, we're racing around trying to figure out who this other wife was that we have no evidence for. Maybe that's because she didn't exist.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allow me to try this again- My intent is to test the claim that KV35YL could be Meritaten. I do not see that as possible if the claim that KV55 is not Akhenaten is to be upheld. So tell me if I understand this correctly...

KV35 = Amenhotep III

KV35EL = Tiye

KV55 = Son of KV35 and KV35EL

KV35YL = Daughter of KV35 and KV35EL

Tut = Son of KV55 and KV35YL

Meritaten = Daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti

Is any of the above disputed?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
Allow me to try this again- My intent is to test the claim that KV35YL could be Meritaten. I do not see that as possible if the claim that KV55 is not Akhenaten is to be upheld. So tell me if I understand this correctly...

KV35 = Amenhotep III

KV35EL = Tiye

KV55 = Son of KV35 and KV35EL

KV35YL = Daughter of KV35 and KV35EL

Tut = Son of KV55 and KV35YL

Meritaten = Daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti

Is any of the above disputed?


Yes, though disputed may be too strong a word. Kate Phizackerley at http://www.***/2010/03/dna-shows-that-kv55-mummy-probably-not.html posits that KV35YL is the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, whose mummies we don't have. She has KV55 as Smenkhkare, son of Amenhotep III and Tiye. So she has KV55 marrying not his full sister but his neice, who is the daughter of his brother and his closely related wife. I think the last part is key. The DNA for KV55 and KV35YL is so close and can be read as a full sibling relationship, but does not have to be read that way if there are two lines of descent from Yuya and Thuya (i.e. if Nefertiti is the daughter of Ay is the brother of Tiye .) This second line of descent muddies the waters a bit and opens up this possibility.
More in depth, if Nefertiti were not descended from Yuya and Thuya, we should see that in the DNA, we would see more "foreign" DNA and say, of course the Younger Lady is the neice of KV55. However, if Nefertiti is descended from Yuya and Thuya, the DNA of the Younger Lady can look as if she's a full sister, because her mother brought the same DNA to the table.
As for this second line of descent upon which this theory is based, Phizackerley shows some alleles which skip a few generations, and posits that the reason they come back is not due to sheer chance (though it could be) but rather because these alleles were reintegrated by the second line of descent. Of course this line is also backed up a bit by Ay's title "Father of the God" and his similar titles to Yuya, which we all know.

And so, if KV55=Smenkhkare and KV35YL = daughter of Akhenaten, then she could very probably = Meritaten, Smenkhkare's wife.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...test the claim that KV35YL could be Meritaten.


EXCELLENT!!

allele positions are abbreviated. Thus D7 is D7S820,etc.

KV35m
D13-10,16; D7-6,15; D2-16,27; D21-25,34; D16-8,13; D18-16,22

KV35EL
D13-11,12; D7-10,15; D2-22,26; D21-26,29; D16-6,11; D18-9,12

KV55
D13-10,12; D7-15,15; D2-16,26; D21-29,34; D16-11,13; D18-16,19

KV35YL
D13-10,12; D7-6,10; D2-16,26; D21-25,29; D16-8,11; D18-16,19

OS35=hypothetical "Akhenaton"
D13-12,16; D7-6,#; D2-16,26; D21-25,#; D16-8,11; D18-16,#

OP21=hypothetical "Nefertiti"
D13-10,#; D7-13,#; D2-17,26; D21-29,35; D16-11,13; D18-10,19

KV62m(Tutankhamun)
D13-10,12; D7-10,15; D2-16,26; D21-29,34; D16-8,13; D18-19,19

#
OS35 D7 other allele is 10 or 15
OS35 D21 other allele is 26 or 29
OS35 D18 other allele is 19 or 22

OP21 D13 other allele is either 9, 11, 12, or 13
OP21 D7 other allele is 6 or 10

OS35 and OP21 hypothetical allele assignments from Phizackerley,2010

This discussion is open to everyone.
First one to discover a new parent/child relation gets a free post to Egyptian Dreams.

The summary by khaemweset of how the DNA data and kinship analysis may be explained by pedigree, family tree, and historical information is excellent.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's an excellent article, and thank you so much for the posting.
It seems to me that the latest genological reserch done on the Amarna family leaves more questions than it answers--there are just too many possiblities instead of proven, uncontested facts.
Even the words--"posssibilities, perhaps, likely" and others raises all sorts of questions for me.
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