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KV 55 = Smenkhare? Akhenaten?
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ikon"]
neseret wrote:
...

Also, bad teeth do not cause early death, or death at all, unless of course there is infection that leads to sepsis, and this causes deaths even today in countries with first rate medical services.

...


You're correct that bad teeth in and of themselves do not cause death, but your point about infection is what's important. Forensic studies of a great many Egyptian human remains have reported time and again the horrible condition of people's teeth in the ancient Nile Valley.

And it is exactly this which caused health problems. Missing or broken teeth provide quick access to all manner of bacteria and viruses. In a time long before antibiotics or even a basic understanding of bacterial and viral agents, such contaminants quickly led to all sorts of sicknesses. This might not prove fatal in many cases, but continued periods of sickness through such a mechanism was certain to weaken the immune system and leave the individual susceptible to much more serious medical conditions.

Also commonly found in the jaws of ancient Egyptian bodies are clear signs of abscesses. These pus-filled pockets could be lethal, when they burst inside the head. There would've been no certain way to treat them.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
... Tutankhamun's coffins may well have been third hand, ...

There is consensus that at least the inner gold coffin was made originally for Tutankhamun (Partridge, GM, 1996). That the gold coffin never was part of an ensemble together with the coffin from KV 55 is clear after a simple look at the length dimensions. The gold coffin is 187.5 cms in length, the one from KV 55 is 175 cms.

The coffin from KV 55 was original made for Amenhotep IV / Akhenaton. See for that Alfred Grimm / Sylvia Schoske : Das Geheimnis des goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit. - [Catalog for special exhibition München,Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 17. Oktober 2001 bis 6. Januar 2002]. - München : Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 2001. - ISBN : 3-87490-722-8. - 162 p., available in various libraries around the world.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excuse me for not making lots of little quotes, but I'm sure all concerned will see what is what Smile

I had not intended to include Tutankhamun's inner coffin among the "cast offs", though I would like to know how they made one of the greatest art treasures in the world in 70 days, if of course this 70 day period was set in stone. I'm sure I read somewhere that there is some evidence to suggest the Tutankhamun "hung around" for some time before burial, I don't know.

Certainly bad teeth can lead to all sorts of other problems, like a pus explosion in your head Shocked It's that I have a general view that people, and not only AE, lived longer than is believed. I tend to think that 50 is more reasonable for those who did not have to do manual labour.

I am inclined to the view of neseret that the body in KV55 is not Akhenaten, though still need to find and read her work on this.

I am still sceptical that the coffin, no matter who the occupant is, was originally made for Akhenaten in the sense that is was the coffin he was buried in when he was first buried. I wrote before that it is a good coffin, but just not good enough for his original burial. And yes, I do see that the hands are moulded into the coffin as an original feature to hold the crook and flail, so it was made for a king, of some name or other....I need to find the book reccomended by Lutz, if it is available in Russian or English...
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
... I would like to know how they made one of the greatest art treasures in the world in 70 days, if of course this 70 day period was set in stone. ...

Nine or ten years in government certainly more than enough time ... We know that they begun to produce such pieces long before the death and the 70-day-period.

Ikon wrote:
... I am still sceptical that the coffin, no matter who the occupant is, was originally made for Akhenaten in the sense that is was the coffin he was buried in when he was first buried. ...

The Munich investigations have proven this. It is not believed that Akhenaten was first buried in that coffin. Presumably, the coffin is pre-Atonian / Osirian and was therefore rejected originally. The book by Schoske & Grimm is in German only. But if you use the search function here in this forum you will find a lot of information out of it, also some scans of pictures.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The KV55 coffin is a superb piece of work covered with sheet gold and exquisite faience inlay worthy of a royal occupant. The fact the head is covered by a wig rather than the familiar nemes headress is unusual is it not? And wasn't there a prayer to the aten inscribed on the footplate?
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the foot of the coffin are these words.

"Words spoken by [cartouche removed], justified :
O to breathe the sweet wind that comes out of your mouth
May I behold your [unreadable] in all days.
My wish is to hear your sweet voice of the north wind,
that may rejuvenate my limbs in the life of your love.
May you give me your two arms with your ka
that I seize it and that I live with it.
May you call my name for eternity without it perishing in your mouth.
O my father Horakhty [cartouche removed] , you are like Ra eternally and forever, living like the Aten [unreadable],
says the king of upper- and lower Egypt, living in truth, lord of the two lands[cartouche removed],
the regenerated child of the living Aten, who is here living eternally and forever, Son of Ra [cartouche removed], justified."

Why a reference to Horakhty if the Aten was God and nobody else? Could it be that this coffin was already old, comparatively, before it was used for (insert name of favourite king/queen). I believe that a cartouche with the name of Smenkhare was found, possibly on a fragment of gold mummy band, among the dissolute mess under the coffin. Though it seems difficult to find first hand evidence of this, let alone a photo.

Existing royal coffins are somewhat rare... So I think it difficult to say what was normal, though this coffin just does not look right to me as being the original coffin for any king, only as something made later, for reasons we still struggle to understand. By the dimensions I assume it was the inner coffin, and would Akhenaten really not have had a solid gold one, originally. This coffin with a wig seems all wrong, but on this subject who knows what is right or wrong...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

akhenaten tolerated all forms of the sun god, but the form he thought reigned supreme was the aten, which is mentioned as early as thutmose III. though i think it is older. some have mentioned that the aten may in fact be amenhotep III in akhenaten's mind. interesting theory.

there are actually quite a few surviving coffins and fragments, which makes me wonder whose started the solid gold coffin routine.
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Sinuhe
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
On the foot of the coffin are these words.

"Words spoken by [cartouche removed], justified :
O to breathe the sweet wind that comes out of your mouth
May I behold your [unreadable] in all days.
My wish is to hear your sweet voice of the north wind,
that may rejuvenate my limbs in the life of your love.
May you give me your two arms with your ka
that I seize it and that I live with it.
May you call my name for eternity without it perishing in your mouth.
O my father Horakhty [cartouche removed] , you are like Ra eternally and forever, living like the Aten [unreadable],
says the king of upper- and lower Egypt, living in truth, lord of the two lands[cartouche removed],
the regenerated child of the living Aten, who is here living eternally and forever, Son of Ra [cartouche removed], justified."

Why a reference to Horakhty if the Aten was God and nobody else? Could it be that this coffin was already old, comparatively, before it was used for (insert name of favourite king/queen). I believe that a cartouche with the name of Smenkhare was found, possibly on a fragment of gold mummy band, among the dissolute mess under the coffin. Though it seems difficult to find first hand evidence of this, let alone a photo.

Existing royal coffins are somewhat rare... So I think it difficult to say what was normal, though this coffin just does not look right to me as being the original coffin for any king, only as something made later, for reasons we still struggle to understand. By the dimensions I assume it was the inner coffin, and would Akhenaten really not have had a solid gold one, originally. This coffin with a wig seems all wrong, but on this subject who knows what is right or wrong...
this is aparaphrase of the hymn to the aten in ay's and meryra2's tombs in akhetaten. this is the best evidence for the coffin being made for akhenaten himself. that is why the best explanation of the body is akhenaten.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as we ignore or explain away the conflicting forensics.

It would be cool to have Akhenaten but I don't think we do. We may however have (one of) his coffins. Suppose this was originally made for him a prince then reused for Smenkhkara?
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herper
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be wrong on the source, my KMT collection got destroyed. A few years back when the coffin bottom reappeared, rumors were that the gold foil from Inside the coffin or from the mummy itself had also been found, and had Smenkhare's name. This was in a several issues of KMT that covered the KV55 coffin bottom.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
I may be wrong on the source, my KMT collection got destroyed.

Shocked That's horrible!

herper wrote:
A few years back when the coffin bottom reappeared, rumors were that the gold foil from Inside the coffin or from the mummy itself had also been found, and had Smenkhare's name. This was in a several issues of KMT that covered the KV55 coffin bottom.

I remember that rumor as well. But the inscription (so far) has not surfaced. That would be quite something though!
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herper
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think i saw a tv show with the gold foil crumbled into a ball. To flatten it and to do the least harm to the text would have been a nightmare. Wish i could remember when and what show it was. Just a couple minute clip but interesting
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
... KMT ... rumors were that the gold foil from Inside the coffin or from the mummy itself had also been found, and had Smenkhare's name. ...

Pure speculation from the author on the basis of alleged statements from "not named German Egyptologists". Absolutely frivolous. Multiple denied by the Munich scientists who were involved in the reconstruction of the coffin. Read in Grimm / Schoske : Das Geheimnis des goldenen Sarges (2001). All parts of the Munich miscellany are listed here.

The mentioned KMT articles are ...

Forbes : KV 55 Gold Foil still in Cairo. - In: KMT 12-2. - 2001. - 19-25.

Forbes : Editors Report - Gold Foil KV 55. - In: KMT 14-1. - 2003. - 2-3.

Forbes : So whats become of the Golden Cartouche. - In: KMT 21-2. - 2010. - 36-37.

herper wrote:
... i saw a tv show with the gold foil crumbled into a ball. ...

Such I have not seen yet. I only remember the appearance of Hawass and his "discovery" of the foils from coffin KV 55 in Cairo Museum (probably the King Tut DNA show?).

Greetings, Lutz.
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Sinuhe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
herper wrote:
... KMT ... rumors were that the gold foil from Inside the coffin or from the mummy itself had also been found, and had Smenkhare's name. ...

Pure speculation from the author on the basis of alleged statements from "not named German Egyptologists". Absolutely frivolous. Multiple denied by the Munich scientists who were involved in the reconstruction of the coffin. Read in Grimm / Schoske : Das Geheimnis des goldenen Sarges (2001). All parts of the Munich miscellany are listed here.

The mentioned KMT articles are ...

Forbes : KV 55 Gold Foil still in Cairo. - In: KMT 12-2. - 2001. - 19-25.

Forbes : Editors Report - Gold Foil KV 55. - In: KMT 14-1. - 2003. - 2-3.

Forbes : So whats become of the Golden Cartouche. - In: KMT 21-2. - 2010. - 36-37.

herper wrote:
... i saw a tv show with the gold foil crumbled into a ball. ...

Such I have not seen yet. I only remember the appearance of Hawass and his "discovery" of the foils from coffin KV 55 in Cairo Museum (probably the King Tut DNA show?).

Greetings, Lutz.
this is where the rubber meets the road. the germans have been at the forefront of amarna studies for over 70 years. outside of presumption and speculation the tarpits exibit the proverbial elephant laboring to bring forth a mouse.
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