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KV 55 = Smenkhare? Akhenaten?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
As Katherine Griffis-Greenberg has pointed out Hawass et.-al. base their older estimate on deterioration visible in the spine. Unfortunately this is NOT at all a reliable sign as even children under certain circumstances can show such deterioration and it is extremely common in people suffering from a scoliosis.

We must also remember that a theory wrecks havoc with scholarly detachment and Zahi definitely has a theory. Heck he is apparently still dedicated to Nefertiti or Kiya being Tut's mother in spite of the improbability of either being KV35YL.


Why is it improbable?


Because KV35YL is a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye and neither Nefertiti nor Kiya uses the title of 'King's Daughter' EVER. Rationalizations are possible of course but the simplest explanation is they didnt' call themselves King's Daughter because there weren't.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the likelyhood that Tut is the son of KV35EL and that she's one of the children of Amenhotep III and Tiye the perfect solution to the problem of his parentage.

Tut is the son of a King (confirmed by the talatat originally from Amarna) - that fits both Akhenaten and Smenkhkare. It is also logical given what we know that either Akhenaten or Smenkhkare could have been married at some point to one of their sisters (there are several to choose from and as we know from previous reigns, the sister married to Pharoah isn't necessarily the GRW). (Tuthmosis III, Amenhotep II, Tuthmosis IV)

As to why she isn't mentioned at Amarna, perhaps she did not live there. Tutankhamun's nurse Maya was buried in Saqqara, which makes me believe that she was based at Memphis. If Tut's mother lived there it's no surprise that she isn't depicted at Amarna, especially if she died shortly after his birth (perhaps before Akhetaten was completed?). I think too often we assume that the royal family just lived at Akhetaten - they didn't all of the time; there were Amarna era palaces at Memphis and Malkata (near Thebes).
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The age of KV35YL is hardly established, and as pointed out it could still apply to Nefertiti. There has been much written in this forum as to the inconsistencies of age dating on Egyptian mummies.

At one stage we were told ( after Joan Fletchers Assertions she was nefertiti) that the mummy was a man, then that she hadnt had any children, then that well actually she is the mother of Tutankhamen??
Hardly gives a person confidence in the results does it.

AS the records showing Nefertiti start only after Akhenatons reign, then of course she will not say she is the Kings daughter, as she is the CURRENT Kings wife. To say she was Kings daughter as well would just be confusing to everyone, dont you think?

It does mention in one of her names that she is a heiress (I read somewhere)? Perhaps this title was given to show she was a royal member. Rather than Kings daughter due to her current status of Kings wife.

What evidence do we have of Akhenaton or Amenhotep IV before he took over? IS there any. I know Tuthmosis was mentioned everywhere, but Amenhotep iv?

It is still possible that Nefertiti was one of Akhenatons sisters. Or at least a half sister.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prince Amenhotep is known from a wine jar label from Malkata. It is assumed that this Prince later became Amenhotep IV. It's not accurate to say Prince Tuthmosis is known from "everywhere" - there is only one depiction of him (shown as a priest of Ptah), there's the material from the burial of his cat, an inscription in the Serapeum and an item from the tomb of Tutankhamun, but that might be an heriloom from Tuthmosis IV because it does not match the other known titles of the prince.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wouldn`t have confused anyone if Nefertiti had used both the king`s daughter title and her GRW title. One would not necessairily have asked which king`s daughter she was as this title basically meant "princess".
If we hear today of a "Princess X" we are usually satisfied to know that she is a royal. Besides, like any today`s average British citizen knows the names and relationships of the core royal family the Egyptians would have known who`s king`s daughter their queen was.

I can see no acceptable reason why Nefertiti should have hidden her King`s daughter title away as the royals` motto apparently was the more titles, the better.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you see great royal wives using all their titles all the time, ahmose nefertari was king's- daughter, sister, wife and mother all at once. so nefertiti never using these titles is good evidence she wasnt royal.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
It wouldn`t have confused anyone if Nefertiti had used both the king`s daughter title and her GRW title. One would not necessairily have asked which king`s daughter she was as this title basically meant "princess".
If we hear today of a "Princess X" we are usually satisfied to know that she is a royal. Besides, like any today`s average British citizen knows the names and relationships of the core royal family the Egyptians would have known who`s king`s daughter their queen was.

I can see no acceptable reason why Nefertiti should have hidden her King`s daughter title away as the royals` motto apparently was the more titles, the better.


However once Elizabeth became Queen of England she is no longer referred to as Princess.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
you see great royal wives using all their titles all the time, ahmose nefertari was king's- daughter, sister, wife and mother all at once. so nefertiti never using these titles is good evidence she wasnt royal.


However evidence also shows that Nefertiti and Akhenaton were not like all the royals that came before them. They were in many ways exceptions.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
Sothis wrote:
It wouldn`t have confused anyone if Nefertiti had used both the king`s daughter title and her GRW title. One would not necessairily have asked which king`s daughter she was as this title basically meant "princess".
If we hear today of a "Princess X" we are usually satisfied to know that she is a royal. Besides, like any today`s average British citizen knows the names and relationships of the core royal family the Egyptians would have known who`s king`s daughter their queen was.

I can see no acceptable reason why Nefertiti should have hidden her King`s daughter title away as the royals` motto apparently was the more titles, the better.


However once Elizabeth became Queen of England she is no longer referred to as Princess.


The AE royals were apparently different in this respect, they liked to show off as many titles as possible.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Dodson and Hylton the title usually translated as 'heiress' or even 'hereditary princess' could be more accurately translated as 'hereditary member of the ruling caste' it is in other words a noble rather than royal title - and very widely spread at that.

Granted Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti challenged many rules and changed many customs BUT they started out conventionally enough as Amenhotep IV and Nefertiti. MAYBE she would have dropped the 'King's Daughter' for some unknown ideological reason but even so the MANY inscriptions from before the move to Akhetaten and the name changes should include the King's Daughter title - if she was one.
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Austendw
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
MAYBE she would have dropped the 'King's Daughter' for some unknown ideological reason but even so the MANY inscriptions from before the move to Akhetaten and the name changes should include the King's Daughter title - if she was one.

We can never know for sure and therefore your suggestion that there may have been an unknown ideological reason is properly cautious. But actually, it's terribly difficult to make a plausible case for Nefertiti dropping the title "King's Daughter" for any such reason, since Amenophis III was an honoured figure at Amarna, even if he was tactfully referred to by his prenomen Nebma'atre rather than his ideologically unacceptable nomen.

If Tiye and Beketaten can be shown in the tomb of Huya facing Amenophis III (deceased... presumably) and can regularly be referred to as Great Wife and King's Daughter respectively, then acknowledgement of a relationship to Amenophis III was entirely acceptable. So why should Nefertiti have ever have wanted to hide the fact that she was his daughter?

And, come to think of it - and actually more importantly, since they weren't Queens - there is no reason why Beketaten, who is known as "King's Daughter" shouldn't also have been known as "Queen's Sister". And no reason why Mutnodjmet AKA Mutbenret AKA Benretmut, who was known as Queen's sister, shouldn't also have been known as King's Daughter.

But all this falls perfectly into place if Nefertiti wasn't a daughter of Amenophis III.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what did happen to the other sisters with the move to Amarna?
Where is Isis and Sitamun. Dont Aunties attend such events as well.

I found Marianne Lubans comments on Kates News from the Valley of the Kings blog interesting- see it here
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=5364483493378543681&postID=6449976729546148240
"
The mummy still resembles Nefertiti in all the same points of identification but who she is now depends, insofar as I can tell, on who the KV55 individual is--as they seem to be brother and sister. Is there anything preventing Nefertiti from being even a full sister of Akhenaten? No. So far, her parentage has consisted purely of conjecture. She is not styled "king's daughter" but neither is Ankhesenamun once she married Tutankhamun and we know she was a royal princess--if she is the same Ankhesenamun who was the third daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Nefertiti had a "sister" named Benretmut but the term was used loosely in ancient Egypt and can even have been a "milk sister" or "cousin". The nurse of Nefertiti was Ay's wife, Tey. In the earlier part of their reign, Nefertiti and Akhenaten presented themselves as Shu and Tefnut, twins who sprang from the sun-god, Ra, and formed a kind of "holy trinity" with him. Nefertiti was called "goddess" in the commoner tomb of Ay and Tey--something rather odd had she been a mere commoner, herself
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Marianne Lubans comment later on re titles she says this here
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=5364483493378543681&postID=6449976729546148240

Getting back to queenly titles, I don't think there were any standards for them throughout pharaonic history. The basic one for the Chief Wife of the pharaoh was "Hmt nsw wrt", of course, and that was as near to "queen" as it got. At the early part of the 18th Dynasty, the royal ladies used every honor they had coming to them, king's daughter, king's sister, god's wife, king's mother--whatever. However, by the reign of Thutmose III these attestations of filiation become rare because the pharaoh began to marry non-royal ladies. Sometimes, after that, we don't even see "Hmt nsw wrt" until these ladies became dowagers or even postumously. Obviously Qeen Tiye could have no title except "Hmt nsw wrt" as she was not a king's daughter or sister. This is merely my opinion, but it's possible that, while she lived as a dowager queen, the situation became delicate. Was it proper for Nefertiti to have more titles than the great Tiye? At any rate, the fashion for proclaiming ones full heritage seems to have died out at this time--or one cannot explain why Ankhesenamun was only styled simply "Hmt nsw wrt".
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can read MAriannes paper on the KV35YL mummy here
Also lots of photos http://www.uned.es/geo-1-historia-antigua-universal/NOTICIAS/AKHENATON_NEFERTITI_OTRA_VEZ.htm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
At any rate, the fashion for proclaiming ones full heritage seems to have died out at this time--or one cannot explain why Ankhesenamun was only styled simply "Hmt nsw wrt".

With respect, that strikes me as a tad naive. It surely isn't stretching credulity to suppose that during the reign of Tutankhamun - which can be broadly summarised as a time of return to traditional religion, and in particular to the cult of Amun - the "Hmt msw wrt" might tactfully avoid advertising the fact that she was the daughter of the very man who had financial starved those very temples, and then tried to expunge the name of Amun throughout Egypt. Ankhesenamun's situation was not the normal standard by which we can gauge the use of the term "King's Daughter" in the 18th Dynasty; she's a special case because of who her father was.
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