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KV 55 = Smenkhare? Akhenaten?
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some say it was more likely Horemhab that expunged all references rather than Tut
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
Some say it was more likely Horemhab that expunged all references rather than Tut


Yes, but there is a difference between expunging references and distancing oneself from somebody by other more subtle means. The latter certainly happened already during Tut`s reign using ways acceptable for both supporters of Aten and Amun in order to ensure a smooth transition to the old ways.
This was achieved by gradually changing Tut`s name (AFAIK for some time he was known both as Tutankhaten and Tutankhamun), silently dropping his wife`s King`s Daughter title and so on.
Although the temples of the deprived deities were heavily enriched the Aten temple still operated.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is Akhenesenamun referred to on the golden throne that shows the royal couple under the rays of the Aten? Both have the earlier versions of their names on that I believe - but is there any reference to the queen's parents?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:

Yes, but there is a difference between expunging references and distancing oneself from somebody by other more subtle means. The latter certainly happened already during Tut`s reign using ways acceptable for both supporters of Aten and Amun in order to ensure a smooth transition to the old ways.
This was achieved by gradually changing Tut`s name [...] silently dropping his wife`s King`s Daughter title and so on.
Although the temples of the deprived deities were heavily enriched the Aten temple still operated.

Exactly. Some sort of working compromise between the extremes of Akhenaten's Atenism and a revived traditional cult seem to have been the aim. The KV55 burials are evidence of muted, inostentatious but respectful reburials of Amarna royalty (before they were desecrated years later), so there's no question of proscription or anything like that.

But there was an apparent policy of tactful forgetfulness with regard to the person of Akhenaten himself. Actually I suspect that there came a point when everyone agreed that Akhenaten had gone over the top; I suspect all or at least some of his nearest and dearest took that line. So, whoever precisely Neferneferuaten was (Nefertiti, Meritaten or A.N. Other) she (a) was a close relative of Akhenaten (does anyone doubt that?) (b) did have an Atenist name and epithets that did (sometimes) refer to [Akhenaten] Waenre, but (c) was at the same time responsible for the foundation of (or continued upkeep of) an Amunist Temple of Ankhkheperure, opting for traditional funerary equipment (later appropriated by Tutankhamun). Subsequently, Tutankhaten and Ankhesenpaaten dropped the Atenist names, and avoided explicitly mentioning their Atenist forbear, presumably to avoid alienating the Amun establishment for whom Akhenaten must have been a bit of a bogeyman.

Things got retrospectively hostile later on but I suspect that the impetus for that was more dynastic than anything else.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the exception of Ankhesenamun ALL the Queens we know of who did not use the 'King's Daughter' title were commoners. Given the fairly obvious political reasons for Ankhes NOT emphasizing her paternity AND the fact that later queens who were King's Daughters happily proclaimed the fact I think it very unsafe to suggest there was any kind of general practice of King's Daughter not using that title as Queen.

Really the ONLY reason anybody even raises the question is because they want to make KV35YL Nefertiti, and that doesn't strike me as a good enough reason.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Kv35YL is a Royal as KV55s sibling, and is Tutankhamens Mother.

So that does narrow the choices as to who she could be substantially.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I keep saying my money's on Baketaten, the only daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye recorded at Akhetaten. The four other possibilities are Sitamun, Isis, Henutaneb and Nebetia. The last MAY have been the same person as Beketaten assuming she joined in the general changing of names.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This interesting article from Nicholas Reeves website has a bit of a breakdown of the evidence presented in KV55

http://www.nicholasreeves.com/item.aspx?category=Collections&id=264

It also notes that two of the seals were from Tutankhamen, so the mummies must have been shifted during his reign.
The evidence does rather point to Akhenaton.

I did wonder after reading this if maybe Smenkhare ran off with Kiya!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure that the assumption that KV 55 & 62 were only despoiled in Ramesside times can be safely held any more. If i remember correctly, a flash flood, not long after Tutankhamun's reign deposited a layer over the entrances to these tombs, which was not subsequently breached. The diggers of KV 63 did, it seems, dig through this layer when they were excavating the tomb.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Austendw wrote:
Aromagician wrote:
At any rate, the fashion for proclaiming ones full heritage seems to have died out at this time--or one cannot explain why Ankhesenamun was only styled simply "Hmt nsw wrt".

With respect, that strikes me as a tad naive. It surely isn't stretching credulity to suppose that during the reign of Tutankhamun - which can be broadly summarised as a time of return to traditional religion, and in particular to the cult of Amun - the "Hmt msw wrt" might tactfully avoid advertising the fact that she was the daughter of the very man who had financial starved those very temples, and then tried to expunge the name of Amun throughout Egypt. Ankhesenamun's situation was not the normal standard by which we can gauge the use of the term "King's Daughter" in the 18th Dynasty; she's a special case because of who her father was.


Blame Kmt-sesh for finding this thread for me (not that I would ever wish to dob him in!)

Have nor fully read this thread, but scanned a few of the discussions. The above quote stod out like a sore thumb (to me, at least!)

Queens were NOT always named as King's Daughter or King's Sister? Curious!

Another more general thing I noticed --- don't trust anyone who says Smenkhare definitely existed --- or anything else a Egyptologist (or Egyptoligal Enthusist) says is 'fact'! It may only be a 'fact' in the Egypologist who presents it! Shocked
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry - yet again!!!!

Another more general thing I noticed --- don't trust anyone who says Smenkhare definitely existed --- Or anything else a Egyptologist (or Egyptoligal Enthusist) says is 'fact'! It may only be a 'fact' in the head of the Egypologist who presents it!

Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and how would you explain the inscription on the wall of Meryre II depicting a King with Queen Meritaten, whose name was recorded as Ankh-kheperure Smenkhare Djeser-kheperu by Lepsius


(image courtesy of neseret from http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4342 )

Or a wine jar label recording year 1 of Smenkhare in Amarna?

There's also a block from Hermopolis depicting Smenkhare with Meritaten and jar 405 from Tutankhamen's tomb which although now erased does show that the old inscription seems to have been for Akhenaten and this king Nesw Bity (Ankh kheperure)| Sa Re (Smenkhare Djeserkheperure)| (see Allen's "The Amarna Succession").

And if you are still not convinced, then there are line drawings of rings from Amarna from http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/chronology/semenkhkare.html

As you can see there are rings inscribed for an individual named Smenkhare Djeserkheperure. It seems to me that this is hardly in anyone's head, but supported instead by some facts? Smile

So some individual seems to have gone by that name.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Oh and how would you explain the inscription on the wall of Meryre II depicting a King with Queen Meritaten, whose name was recorded as Ankh-kheperure Smenkhare Djeser-kheperu by Lepsius


(image courtesy of neseret from http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4342 )

Or a wine jar label recording year 1 of Smenkhare in Amarna?

There's also a block from Hermopolis depicting Smenkhare with Meritaten and jar 405 from Tutankhamen's tomb which although now erased does show that the old inscription seems to have been for Akhenaten and this king Nesw Bity (Ankh kheperure)| Sa Re (Smenkhare Djeserkheperure)| (see Allen's "The Amarna Succession").

And if you are still not convinced, then there are line drawings of rings from Amarna from http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/chronology/semenkhkare.html

As you can see there are rings inscribed for an individual named Smenkhare Djeserkheperure. It seems to me that this is hardly in anyone's head, but supported instead by some facts? Smile

So some individual seems to have gone by that name.


Thanks Anneke. Just the kind of thing I like to see! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Re: How real is Smenkhare anyway? Reply with quote

Solon wrote:
The discussion of whether KV55 is the home of Akhenaten or Smenkhare begs the question of whether someone called Smenkhare ever actually existed. Having been a supporter of Smenkh for some years I have gradually come to the conclusion that there is no real evidence for him. I finally said goodbye to him after reading Sue Moseley's 'Amarna - The Missing Evidence' (Peach Pixel, Calshot 2009). There's plenty I disagree with in this book - and it could have done with a lot more checking and editing - but I think the core of her book - the sections dealing with the epigraphy surrounding Smenkhare are pretty definitive.

She examines the work of the four early explorers of Meryre II's tomb (the main source for 'Smenkhare'), Robert Hay, Nestor l'Hote, Prisse D'Avennes and Lepsius.
Robert Hay was the first to record the Meryre II cartouches in 1830 when the cartouches were still reasonably visible, (his drawings are probably the major 'source' of the name Smenkhare). Luckily his original drawings are still available at the British Library and Sue M re-examined them. It is clear from the drawings that the last two of the five cartouches were badly damaged even then. He did not claim to see the name Smenkhare. Two French explorers, Nestor L'Hote and Prisse D'Avennes recorded the cartouches in 1839 and 1843 respectively. Then Karl Lepsius (the first with an understanding of hieroglyphs) made a squeeze of the cartouches in 1845. None of them reported seeing 'Smenkhare'. Much later (long after the cartouches had disappeared) came the work of Davies, Petrie (with his two ring bezels of Smenkhare which suggested the later reconstruction), Newberry and others. She shows how the work of all these people influenced each other - even to the extent of replicating each other's 'enhancements' and mistakes. She summarises a very complex history thus: 'Robert Hay saw the cartouches on the North Wall of the Tomb of Meryre II before anyone else. Karl Lepsius visited about 15 years later, but enhanced his work for publication. Nestor L'Hote and Prisse D'Avennes altered their findings to fit Lepsius' enhanced findings. Davies followed Petrie, although Petrie's rings are not related to the tomb inscriptions'. In short 'Smenkhare' seems to been a bit of an epigraphic chimera. Perhaps someone can restore my faith in Smenkh? There may be some real evidence for his existence out there which I am ignoring.


This is the reason I raised my doubts, M'lady!

Must look into it further, methinks... Idea
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you go to the online Petrie museum catalog you can find some of these cartouches

bezels, rings UC23800
Fragment of green faience ring; part of bezel and shank; vertical cartouche of Smenkhkare


The image shows the djeserkheperu part of the name and a part of the ka glyph is visible.

I would not take Moseley's book too serious. For one she's not an Egyptologists and does not have all the fact. It seems that claiming that a person is a chimera when you don't have all that solid of a grasp of the archaeological record could be a tad unreliable?

I think that even this partial inscription shows a royal who is not Akhenaten, Nefertiti, or any of the other known suspects. Tt does not say Ankheperure, and the only other royal I know of with "djeser" in his name is Horemheb (djeser-kheperure stepenre), but this bezel does not match that name.
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