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The other KV35 mummy. Who is it?
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harrisandreson
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:52 am    Post subject: kv35 one more mummy Reply with quote

Previous studies have suggested that woman was aged about 50 when she died, and many scholars believe that she may be Queen Tiye, mother of Akhenaten. In support of this theory are her age at death and the possibly “royal” position of her hands (the left arm at the chest and the right down by her side). In addition, one study comparing a strand of the Elder Lady’s hair to a lock of hair found inside a tiny coffinette inscribed for Tiye from Tutankhamun’s tomb concluded that the two samples matched. However, these results have been disputed, and the identification is still not secure. Read more about the CT scan of this mummy.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: kv35 one more mummy Reply with quote

harrisandreson wrote:
Previous studies have suggested that woman was aged about 50 when she died, and many scholars believe that she may be Queen Tiye, mother of Akhenaten. In support of this theory are her age at death and the possibly “royal” position of her hands (the left arm at the chest and the right down by her side). In addition, one study comparing a strand of the Elder Lady’s hair to a lock of hair found inside a tiny coffinette inscribed for Tiye from Tutankhamun’s tomb concluded that the two samples matched. However, these results have been disputed, and the identification is still not secure. Read more about the CT scan of this mummy.


The DNA tests show KV35 elder lady is the daughter of Yuya and Tuya, so I would say there is really no reason to doubt the identification of this lady as Queen Tiye.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: kv35 one more mummy Reply with quote

harrisandreson wrote:
...these results have been disputed, and the identification is still not secure.


Disputed by who?
On what grounds?

The DNA data (from Hawass et al, 2010, and readily available on this forum) and a genetic kinship analysis show that the KV35EL mummy is;

almost certainly;
1. a child of KV46f
2. a child of KV46m
3. a parent of KV35YL
4. a parent of KV55
5. a spouse of KV35m via KV35YL
6. a spouse of KV35m via KV55
7. a grandparent of KV62 via KV35YL
8. a grandparent of KV62 via KV55

very likely;
9. a grandparent of the KV21 mummies
10. a great-grandparent of the KV62 fetuses
11. a great-grandparent of the KV62 fetuses via a second lineage

Good criticism suggests an alternative rather than simply "finding fault" with the work of others. If KV35EL is not Tiye, what is the alternative?
harrisandreson wrote:
...Read more about the CT scan of this mummy.


Weight of evidence indicates that the KV35EL mummy is almost certainly Tiye. Is there anything in the CT scan that cannot be reconciled with this?
If so, what is it?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Newmoon wrote:
... Certainly the smaller "king" could be female, but I don't personally find any substantiating evidence for it. ...

The sex of the represented persons results inevitably from the number of existing cartouches on the stela (Fig. 3, Berlin ÄMP 17813).

We have seven here. Four belong to the name of the god Aton, three to the royal pair = a king with its queen. If this would be two male kings we should see four cartouches. This rule was valid also during the Amarna years.

Greeting, Lutz.
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Newmoon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Newmoon wrote:
... Certainly the smaller "king" could be female, but I don't personally find any substantiating evidence for it. ...

The sex of the represented persons results inevitably from the number of existing cartouches on the stela (Fig. 3, Berlin ÄMP 17813).

We have seven here. Four belong to the name of the god Aton, three to the royal pair = a king with its queen. If this would be two male kings we should see four cartouches. This rule was valid also during the Amarna years.

Greeting, Lutz.


I've heard of the the three-cartouche argument, though I'm not sure experts can say with impunity that the "rules" during the Amarna reign weren't sometimes (or regularly) broken. For instance, Nefertiti was sometimes portrayed with two cartouches herself, so a single cartouche shouldn't necessarily be considered indisputable evidence for a queen. Likewise, one might argue that Amarna queens were not characteristically shown in male regalia, or that KV55, while irrefutably male, was not buried in an irrefutably male position. Idea

Of course, as I stated before, the figure might indeed be female. I'm just not personally 100% convinced, as the evidence does not seem overwhelming enough. And as it appears there is still some dispute among experts, the debate can't be that cut and dried. At least, I feel it wise to view it in this way.

Thanks for your input. Smile
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Newmoon wrote:
... For instance, Nefertiti was sometimes portrayed with two cartouches herself, ...

For this statement I would like to have concrete proofs.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I though that the only evidence that Tuthmosis died was one shabti found.
Was this dated? I have not found anywhere that says a date.

Is it assumed he died before year 30 because he was no longer included in any inscriptions or reliefs. Is it possible that he had just fallen from favour?

If so he may have died later and could also be a candidate for KV55.


A whip bearing his name was found in Tutankhamens tomb.

I am thinking that the 10year old boy may be a brother to Tutankhamen. But then who is his mummy ( bad pun)
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have thought too that he could be Tut`s brother as well as his uncle.

But we cannot be sure that the Thutmosis named on Tut`s whip really was Akhenaten`s elder brother.
He is not named as "crown Prince" here but simply as king`s son and Commander of Troops, repeating life ( is "repeating life" an expression used for a living or a dead person? The whip could have been made for the living Thutmosis as well as for the dead as a funerary gift).

If he was AIII`s son I would expect him to be named as Crown Prince.
The fact that he is not means it could be any (unknown) Thutmosis or Thutmosis IV himself who apparently wasn`t Crown Prince before he became king.

The strongest indication that the Crown Prince Thutmosis died early is Akhenaten becoming king.
I don`t think it is very likely that he just fell from grace and was therefore not deemed worthy to inherit the throne. What could a child of his age possibly have done to evoke his father`s wrath?

Not completely impossible that something like this happened, but in my view very unlikely. I think he really died before inheriting the throne and the boy in KV35 could be him if one assumes that he was not Commander of Troops.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What age is he reputed to be when he disappeared from the scene. He cant have been that young.
Amnehotep III it is said came to the throne a young boy. Yet even then his eldest some could have been possibly 18 or twenty at least by reignal year 30. Considered a boy in western world, but a man in those times. Many people were dead by thirty.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuthmosis was a sem-priest of Ptah and High priest of Ptah.
It's possible those titles are completely honorary, but I think they could very well point to Tuthmosis having reached an age in his late teens / early twenties.

Prince Tuthmosis is known from:
Material associated with an Apis Burial (as Sem Priest)
Statuette in the Louvre (as a miller)
Statuette in Cairo (mummy on a bier)
Coffin of his cat Ta-Miu

Dodson and Hilton mention that Tuthmosis - Son of Amenhotep III - is only known to have priestly titles.

The whip from Tutankhamen's tomb lists that prince as a Troop Commander.
I's possible Amenhotep III's son also held a position in the military, but it's usually assumed that the whip was an heirloom and belonged to Tuthmosis - son of Amenhotep II - the later Tuthmosis IV.

For all we know Amenhotep III could also have had a brother named Tuthmosis. There is no evidence for such a prince, but then again princes are not that well documented.

Just looking at the materials found associated with Prince Tuthmosis - son of Amenhotep III, brother of Akhenaten - my impression is that of someone who lived to reach his teens and maybe even early twenties.
Taking the priestly titles at face value then that points to someone who was in his mid teens if not early twenties. But then again, who knows how early a king's son could have been promoted through the priestly ranks?
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully we will get the answer if the boy is AIII`s and Tiye`s son soon
(see post on "news re DNA)
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think it could be Tuthmosis, if the age is thought to be only 10 years old.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking through all the posts about the KV35 mummies, it seems the trail of who the unknown boy is has gone very cold. Is it confirmed that his DNA was taken and analysed? Have any results been published, yet have not made an appearance on this forum?. I certainly have looked all over online and find no news dating from later than mid 2010.

As to who he is, I have no better idea than anybody else, though it seems to me that for a person of that age to be interred amongst such august company suggests very strongly that he is important. Certainly his well preserved features show some dignity and familial likeness to other descendants of Ahmose (If he is of course).

Is it known if the monochrome photo of him is from shortly after he was discovered? I ask because the brief glimpses of him in the "Tut Unwrapped" documentary seem to show some deteriation, though there is never a close up full face to be certain.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
Looking through all the posts about the KV35 mummies, it seems the trail of who the unknown boy is has gone very cold. Is it confirmed that his DNA was taken and analysed? Have any results been published, yet have not made an appearance on this forum?. I certainly have looked all over online and find no news dating from later than mid 2010.



There was a rumour in 2010 that the boy`s DNA has been tested.
But no official confirmation nor have any results relating to the boy or the other mummies been published.

I guess that any further publications would immediately make an appearance on this forum Very Happy
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a photo out there on the net somewhere showing Hawass, a scientist and the mummy of the boy in a lab, I shared a link to it at some point but I can't remember if that was here or on another forum. The page it was on related to tests Hawass was talking about being done on the mummies of the 19th Dynasty kings as well as a mummy that Hawass thought might be the real Tuthmosis I. I have pictures of that mummy on my Flickr page (screen grab from Chasing Mummies):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rymerster/4849122744/in/photostream
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