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The other KV35 mummy. Who is it?
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wrong about the documentary. I meant the Fletcher documentary about "Nefertiti", not "Tut unwrapped". I would guess that the departure of Hawass put a, hopefully, temporary stop to any new information being released. So the twidling of fingers and wild conjectures continue Smile

karnsculpture I thought in your gallery the most interesting photos were of the statue bust in the Louvre of the unkown man. I never saw this wonderfull piece before. I would think it if were not Ay, then he is certainly a major Armana person.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:


There was a rumour in 2010 that the boy`s DNA has been tested.
But no official confirmation nor have any results relating to the boy or the other mummies been published.

I guess that any further publications would immediately make an appearance on this forum Very Happy


This is all I can find now, still looking for that photo of Hawass with the KV35 boy:

http://www.***/2010/03/titbits-from-mark-rose-archaeology.html
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karnsculpture, like Ikon, I'm intrigued by the sculpture of the unknown man. It shares so much stylistically and in quality with the work of the sculpture Thutmose that it's tempting to assign him the credit. Was there anything about the context of where it was found?
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Google ""tÍte Salt" (inv. N 2289)" - the piece was acquired from the collection of Henry Salt in 1826 and has been thought to be of Old Kingdom origin, though perhaps not anymore (hence it being moved in the Louvre).

Like this piece in the British Museum archive which resembles Tutankhamun's gold coffin, but has been in the BM since the mid-1800s, the provenance is unknown:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectId=117243&partId=1

Back to the topic, this is a really good blog post about the KV35 boy:
http://tim-theegyptians.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/forgotten-boy.html
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting blog. Personally I would like his DNA result to show him as a full or half brother of Tutankhamun. I think that would be the more interesting result Smile

There is an issue about sidelocks for princes which seems to point to this unknown boy at least being a real prince. It seems to me that most depictions of sidelocks show them braided and styled like a false beard. This fashion being normal for commoners. I have not done any sort of study on this, it is all a generalisation, and if anybody knows better, please tell Smile
However, looking at depictions of the sidelock of known princes, Ramesses II when he was a boy and Amun-her-khepeshef, the son of Ramesses III and owner of QV13, show the sidelock as being unbraided, simply gathered and folded between the scalp and the decorative slide. The hair then hanging loose, though perhaps oiled to maintain a smart appearance. This unknown boy in KV35 has an unbraided sidelock. Perhaps this is of no significance at all, though it would be interesting to know if royalty wore their sidelocks in a way to seperate them from the hoi poloi. Also, on becoming a king while still a youth, would you loose your sidelock straight away? The depictions of Tutankhamun show him wearing a wig when he is not wearing a crown or other headress. Clearly he does not have a sidelock while wearing a wig, though how old was he in these depictions? was he past the age when the sidelock would have been shaved off anyway. My line of thinking is to eliminate this unknown boy as being Smenkhare if a king of any age never had a sidelock.
See, in the absence of these DNA results the mind starts wandering and fantastical speculations and madness appear Laughing
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="karnsculpture"]
Sothis wrote:



This is all I can find now, still looking for that photo of Hawass with the KV35 boy:

http://www.***/2010/03/titbits-from-mark-rose-archaeology.html


That was the source I had vaguely in my mind too.

A picture of Hawass, preferrably in labcoat, and the boy would certainly be nice, but alas: we always arrive at the same conclusion that all testing is rather worthless until there is a proper publication.....

Besides, regarding Smith`s opinion in the "Forgotten Boy" article that he bears strong resemblance to the statue of Khonsu I think this is not surprising as there might also have been a strong resemblance between the Boy and Tut to whom the staue is usually assigned.
And as far as I know princes were never shown in the guise of any gods, only kings.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not able to edit my posts yet, so I add this to say I meant the Amun-her-khepeshef as absent owner of QV55, not 13. I also looked through all forum about sidelocks and have not found any answers.

Anyway, the thought occured to me that if you look at the Burton photo of Tutankhamun, before the present horrible condition of his face. Then using some imagination, and not relying on modern reconstructions, saw him before the carbonisation and took about 8 years off him, he looks remarkably similar to the unknown boy. A pity there seems to be only this one monochrome photo of him where you can clearly see his features, though from just this one perspective. From the front he does not seem to have an overbite as his lips still cover his teeth. I wonder what a profile would show. A pity we cannot even have that, let alone DNA results. Is something being hidden here, or is it just apathy...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are x rays of tut's head out there. that does show the overbite.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An overbite seems to have been something of a Thutmosside trait. Less disfiguring than the infamous Hapsburg jaw but it can't have made chewing easy.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
An overbite seems to have been something of a Thutmosside trait. Less disfiguring than the infamous Hapsburg jaw but it can't have made chewing easy.


These two works:

Harris, J. E. and K. R. Weeks 1973. X-Raying the Pharaohs. London: Macdonald.

Harris, J. E. and E. F. Wente, Eds. 1980. An X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

have an impressive array of Thutmosid-related mummies' X-rays and discusses the rather severe malocclusions (buckteeth) suffered by the dynastic line. You can see how the buckteeth extended with each successive generation.

In some cases, the researchers suggested that indeed eating was a problem, especially, as I recall, for some mid-dynasty Thutmosid queens.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: AIII and his daughter-wives Reply with quote

I don't get why everyone expect Queen Tiye to be the mother of KV55 and KV35YL. At least two of her daughters (Sitamun and Isis) were married to their father Amenhotep III by the end of his reign. Either one or even both could have conceived with their father. Resulting in Smekhkare (who i think is KV55), KV35YL and the boy in KV35.

Genetically it's impossible to make a difference between children of AIII with Queen Tiye and and those he might have had with Sitamun and Isis/Iset.

Baketaton may have been a younger daughter of Tiye but could just as well have been her granddaughter who she raised.

My theory is that AIII was succeeded by his surviving son Amenhotep IV/Achnaton with Queen Tiye who was the Great Royal Wife and seems to have had a bigger influence than many queens before her.

Achnaton married Nefertiti who was a relative of Queen Tiye (possibly a daughter of her deceased brother Aanen or potentially Ay who could be another brother or maybe a brother-in-law as a sister of Tiye would put the required dna of Thuya in the decendants of Nefertiti).
As they only had daughters, Nefertiti rose from Great Royal Wife Nefertiti to GRW Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti to co-ruler and successor Anchepereru-Neferneferuaten.

Smenkhkare was married firstly to his (half)sister KV35YL and had a son prince Tutanchaton. Both Smenkhkare and his first wife may have been children of Amenhotep III with his daughter Sitamun.
After the (violent?) death of his first wife Smenkhkare remarried Achnaton's eldest daughter Meritaten.

After the short solo rule of Nefertiti/Anchepereru-Neferneferuaton she was succeeded by her her son-in-law Anchepereru-Smenkhkare with Great Royal wife Meritaton. He died soon afterwards and was succeeded by his son Tutanchaton who became Tutanchamon.

Anchesenamun was either princess Anchesenpašton (third daughter of Achnaton and Nefertiti) or Anchesenpašton tashjerit (the younger). She may have been a daughter of her namesake or Meritaton with either Achnaton or with Smenkhkare.

Tutanchamon had two fetuses in his grave. The idea of him at the age of 10 marrying a princess who was a few years older would have resulted in him having more wives by the time he died (18 to 20 years old) if that Great Royal Wife had not given birth to a son after years of marriage (assuming the match was consumated by the time Tut was 12 or 13). If he had married a younger princess than her miscarrying as a teenager may not have been cause for concern as they thought there would be enough time.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: AIII and his daughter-wives Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
I don't get why everyone expect Queen Tiye to be the mother of KV55 and KV35YL.


As much as I'm concerned so far KV35OL is KV55's and KV35YL's mother. KV35OL is a daughter of Yuya and Tjuya. KV35OL is the owner of the auburn hair lock found in a coffinette at the Tutankhamun's tomb, inscribed to the "Great Royal Wife Tiye, who lives forever".
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: AIII and his daughter-wives Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:

Genetically it's impossible to make a difference between children of AIII with Queen Tiye and and those he might have had with Sitamun and Isis/Iset.

No, it is not impossible.

Thieuke wrote:

Baketaton may have been a younger daughter of Tiye but could just as well have been her granddaughter who she raised.

We really don't know if Baketaton was Tiye's daughter. We assume it because she is named as "King's Daughter" (the "King" is not named either), and her only depictions are by Tiye's side.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although there is nothing on the three mummies in KV35JA to identify them by name, I think the priests who re-buried them there certainly knew they were related. They would not have had to rely on some remaining history surviving from a few centuries in their past, as surely there would have been proper evidence of who they were from the tomb or tombs they originally inhabited. An obvious point, but I think it necessary to eliminate the prince as being Webensensu. This means he could still be prince Thutmosis, though perhaps he is too young. We are told he is about eleven due to his teeth. Though his mouth is closed and the underside of his jaw is in perfect condition, excluding invasive exploration. His body was examined before the use of xrays. I now believe the high quality monochrome photo of him dates to 1931 or 1932. Though I read nowhere that any xrays were taken of any of them at that time, and the description of his teeth is from Victor Loret who discovered the tomb in 1898. If he is 11, then he is very very small, about 20 cm shorter than he should be, even taking into account the generally shorter stature in those days. If he were modern he would be about 25 cm shorter than average.

In the opening title sequence of Hawass's documentary "Nefertiti and the lost Dynasty", we see this prince under the CAT scan, yet frustratingly he his never shown or mentioned again. It is more than odd that there are no xrays, no CAT scan images, no DNA results. Well, I guess soon there will be some startling revelations in a new documentary that is being prepared under massive security Confused
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if they can take the DNA of two brothers, and determine who is the father of a child, they can most definently say whether tiye is the mother of kv 55 over a daughter of hers.
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