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The other KV35 mummy. Who is it?
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe not "mutation" but perhaps some sort of miscalibration as nobody in the entire family of those mummies tested has 17 at D2S1338. The DNA seems to have been difficult to sequence, anyway. Again, this mummy, KV21B, has the family look and also a severe handicap. The rest of her DNA is consistent with the family numbers. I don't know about these people--where did they come from? Most of them have 16 at D2S1338 but it's rare in Egypt. Out of 100 Coptic Egyptians tested in a location, none of them had 16 at the locus. Moslems tested at the same place had only 0.106 at the marker for 16.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KV55 and the Younger Lady are Akhenaten and Nefertiti. The arguments against the identifications make a poor showing against the overwhelming evidence. Here are the main two:

a) The KV55 individual was too young at death.

But nobody knows for certain just how young and the estimates have varied. Akhenaten need not have been more than 30 years old when he died. He was the king added as an afterthought on the lintel over the doorway to the tomb of Kheruef. Amenhotep IV is there with his mother. He doesn't even have a wife yet but he has a prenomen, meaning he is a boy-king who might have been the co-regent of his father. While Amenhotep III is depicted as being considerably taller than Queen Tiye inside the tomb, his son is shown as barely taller than a very short woman. Akhenaten could have been less than 12 years old at the time, so the insisting that he must have been around 40 when he died is based on nothing.

b) Nefertiti cannot be Akhenaten's sister because she is never styled "king's daughter".

And where is it written that this was mandatory? The reign of Akhenaten is an unusual one in several respects but in this respect it is expected to conform to previous times? In what previous time within the 18th Dynasty are the king and the queen touted as the personifications of Shu and Tefnut? [getting hard to type so will continue]
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KV55 = Akhenaten I think is possible but I don't agree that KV35YL is Nefertiti.

There are many examples at Amarna of princesses being described as King's Daughter, including in the scenes from the tomb of Huya showing Baketaten with Akhenaten, Nefertiti and one of their daughters.

Akenaten's mother is Tiye, and she is described as his mother multiple times - why not Nefertiti as his sister if this were the case?

We know Akhenaten had other wives, and we know he had at least 4 sisters, possibly 5. It seems more likely to me that he married one, but she died and like her other sisters (Baketaten excepted) disappear from the archaeological record.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shu and Tefnut were twins who sprang from the sun-god, Ra, and they were husband and wife. Nefertiti was the only goddess at Akhetaten until Year 9 and is even specifically called "goddess" in one of the earliest tombs of the city, that of Ay. Tefnut may be called the wife of Shu--but who is her father but Ra? To be styled "sAt nsw" would be incongruous with her goddess status. Akhenaten, already having "sA ra" as part of his titulary fit nicely.

The pairing of the full brother and sister, Akhenaten and Nefertiti, proved disastrous and was doubtless the reason for the demise of the dynasty. Their parents had already been related. They were cousins. And the children of "Shu and Tefnut", including Tutankhamun, paid the price. Everything that was wrong with Tutankhamun is the result of inbreeding. The same birth defects manifests themselves in the animal kingdom where the inbreeding is intended to obtain a result. For example--white tigers.

http://bigcatrescue.org/abuse-issues/issues/white-tigers/


"The same gene that causes the white coat causes the optic nerve to be wired to the wrong side of the brain, thus all white tigers are cross eyed, even if their eyes look normal.  They also often suffer from club feet, cleft palates, spinal deformities and defective organs."

Doubtless some of the princesses fared no better and even worse than Tutankhamun.[/url]
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="karnsculpture"]KV55 = Akhenaten I think is possible but I don't agree that KV35YL is Nefertiti.

Quote:
There are many examples at Amarna of princesses being described as King's Daughter, including in the scenes from the tomb of Huya showing Baketaten with Akhenaten, Nefertiti and one of their daughters.


They were not goddesses.

Quote:
Akenaten's mother is Tiye, and she is described as his mother multiple times - why not Nefertiti as his sister if this were the case?


There was nothing else Tiye could be called. Ones mother is ones mother and she was a commoner, besides. But Akhenaten clearly wanted to be seen as a god in order to have a special connection to the Aten. The Aten was his father--Ra-Horakhte--just as in the mythology of Shu and Tefnut. Even Akhenaten was referred to as "my father, Ra-Horakhte" by his children. He is on the base of a statue of Meritaten. But after Year 9 Akhenaten gave up on all this for some reason--even removed Ra-Horakhte from the cartouche of the Aten. But when he died, "my father, Ra Horakhte" was added to the foot of his coffin by whoever was addressing him.

Quote:
We know Akhenaten had other wives, and we know he had at least 4 sisters, possibly 5. It seems more likely to me that he married one, but she died and like her other sisters (Baketaten excepted) disappear from the archaeological record.


The one he married was Nefertiti. According to the tomb of Kheruef, Amenhotep III had at least 8 daughters. They may not all have been born of Queen Tiye--but the fact remains we really don't know how many children this woman had.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think it's silly to single out akhenaten and nefertiti as being unique in their reign, and saying the tables turned.

every king, and queen of egypt identified with a god or goddess, and were worshipped as gods. this doesn't change the genetic relationships, even where the mythology says otherwise.

amenhotep III may have been identified with the sun god, but hathor was identified with tiye. hathor was the daughter (and in some tales his wife also) of the sun, so for your theory to hold ground, tiye must be the daughter and wife of amenhotep III because that's the role she played and what the mythology says.

yet we know tiye was the daughter of yuya and thuya from archaeolgical evidence.

there is no such archaeological evidence for nefertiti being of royal blood. it's been demonstrated in many threads that if you had a title, you flaunt it. this is everywhere in history on every continent, in every culture. nobles and royals have their titles everywhere. the only time a title linking a woman to the royal family was dropped, was when the family she was connected to was disgraced. there is no reason why nefertiti would drop a 'king's daughter' title. her power comes from her lineage and her marriage. it's obvious she is royal by marriage and nothing else.

it is simply religious symbolism for the identification of shu and tefnut. it is a rather unique identity to pick, but there is a theory that in setting up the aten as the sole ruler, and showing the royal family as the only ones with direct contact that akhenaten was telling the world he was the one they had to pray to for what they wanted, and he would have access to the sun. this to me seems more about tellign the priesthood who was in charge, than reflecting biological lineages from mythology and life.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i think it's silly to single out akhenaten and nefertiti as being unique in their reign, and saying the tables turned.


Not unique? Who are you trying to kid? As I said, no other pharaoh and his chief wife are known to have identified themselves with Shu and Tefnut. Nor did any other king allow his family to be portrayed in a casual manner. The old gods were banned and the language of the official texts became Neo-Egyptian instead of Middle Egyptian. Oh, no--nothing unusual there!

Quote:
every king, and queen of egypt identified with a god or goddess, and were worshipped as gods. this doesn't change the genetic relationships, even where the mythology says otherwise.


Nope. The king was styled "nTr nfr" in his titular but he only had a cult after he was dead. No other queen was called "nTrt" besides Nefertiti.

Quote:
amenhotep III may have been identified with the sun god, but hathor was identified with tiye. hathor was the daughter (and in some tales his wife also) of the sun, so for your theory to hold ground, tiye must be the daughter and wife of amenhotep III because that's the role she played and what the mythology says.


Queen Tiye being identified with Hathor is a myth that seems to be perpetuated here. There is no proof of it whatsoever. She may have been a chief devotee of Hathor--but that's about all.


Quote:
there is no such archaeological evidence for nefertiti being of royal blood.


And there's no archaeological evidence that Nefertiti wasn't of royal blood, either. But there's a woman, a mummy, who has all the physical characteristics of Nefertiti, who has been scientifically proven to be the mother of Tutankhamun--and a king's daughter.

Quote:
it's been demonstrated in many threads that if you had a title, you flaunt it.


And it's been pointed out in more than one thread that neither Meritaten nor Ankhesenamun used the title "king's daughter" once they became queens. Just yesterday I posted the text on an element of a box found in the tomb of Tutankhamun. There Meritaten is already styled "king's wife" beside the names of two coregents. But--guess what--no "king's daughter"--and her father must have been still alive when that box was made.

Quote:
this is everywhere in history on every continent, in every culture. nobles and royals have their titles everywhere. the only time a title linking a woman to the royal family was dropped, was when the family she was connected to was disgraced. there is no reason why nefertiti would drop a 'king's daughter' title. her power comes from her lineage and her marriage. it's obvious she is royal by marriage and nothing else.


See what I wrote above. What you just wrote didn't apply at all. You are in no position whatsoever to proclaim "what had to be done" or "what was usual" in the Amarna era, which was stripped of just about every past royal convention that had been established over many centuries.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for that unfounded belief that Queen Tiye was worshipped as Hathor, this scene from the tomb of Kheruef, made late in the reign of Amenhotep III should be proof enough it wasn't true. In fact, there are other scenes of Tiye actually worshipping Hathor, herself. Here the king sits in a kiosk and is embraced by Hathor. Queen Tiye stands behind them both. It isn't Tiye who is wearing the horns and disc--it is Hathor, herself.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Not unique? Who are you trying to kid? As I said, no other pharaoh and his chief wife are known to have identified themselves with Shu and Tefnut. Nor did any other king allow his family to be portrayed in a casual manner. The old gods were banned and the language of the official texts became Neo-Egyptian instead of Middle Egyptian. Oh, no--nothing unusual there!


the old gods may have been offcially banned but they were still worshipped, even at amarna. and the king allowed all solar worship to continue, hence why those temples were not closed. i read somewhere the temples of amun were the only ones closed. but i don't know where that came from. queen tiye is still depicted with hathor's sun disk crown- which according to cline, she was the first queen to use the crown.

SidneyF wrote:
Nope. The king was styled "nTr nfr" in his titular but he only had a cult after he was dead. No other queen was called "nTrt" besides Nefertiti.


every deceased king was identified as osiris, and every living king as horus. now you can't tell me every king in egyptian history was the son of a sibling union, and grandson of one as well.

a quote by david o'connor and eric cline in 'amenhotep III perspectives of his reign':

Quote:
Amenhotep III built a temple to her in Sedeinga in northern Sudan, where she was worshiped as a form of Hathor ... The temple at Sedeinga was the pendant to Amenhotep III's own, larger temple at Soleb, fifteen kilometres to the south (an arrangement followed a century later by Ramses II at Abu Simbel, where there are likewise two temples, the larger southern temple dedicated to the king, and the smaller, northern temple dedicated to the queen, Nefertiry, as Hathor)


so there's your proof tiye was worshipped as a goddess, and not just any goddess, but hathor herself. there is also a myth that tefnut changed into a lion and ran off to nubia.....thoth taking the form of a baboon to bring her back. in some versions, this is hathor. so there is sufficient mythological evidence to equate hathor and tefnut as one deity. especially since hathor and sekhmet were thought of as split personalities of the same being. and the lion being the form tefnut and sekhmet took. therefore that is enough to say if tiye was worshipped as hathor, which she was, then she could also equate with tefnut. if that is the case, it still doesn't prove your theory of akhenaten and nefertiti, as we know tiye was not amenhotep III's sister.

SidneyF wrote:
And there's no archaeological evidence that Nefertiti wasn't of royal blood, either. But there's a woman, a mummy, who has all the physical characteristics of Nefertiti, who has been scientifically proven to be the mother of Tutankhamun--and a king's daughter.


actually there is tonnes of evidence nefertiti was not of royal blood. not once, in all the thousands of times her name is mentioned, does she hold the title 'king's daughter' yet she holds the 'great royal wife' title. all of her daughters use the 'king's daughter' title. queen tiye uses her 'great royal wife' AND 'king's mother' titles at amarna. and kiya uses her 'beloved of the king title'. ergo had neferiti been of royal blood, she would have advertised that fact. kind of essential to prove your the king's sister if you want a literal interpretation of shu and tefnut.

SidneyF wrote:
And it's been pointed out in more than one thread that neither Meritaten nor Ankhesenamun used the title "king's daughter" once they became queens. Just yesterday I posted the text on an element of a box found in the tomb of Tutankhamun. There Meritaten is already styled "king's wife" beside the names of two coregents. But--guess what--no "king's daughter"--and her father must have been still alive when that box was made.


in ankhesenamun's case, this is because of distancing herself from the royal house of amarna. open and shut case. i don't know about meritaten. if it is correct that under smenkhkare and neferneferuaten the worship of amun and return to the old ways began, then possibly meritaten may not have wanted to be associated with amarna. the other possibility may have be the set up of neferneferuaten and meritaten as great royal wife for her (if meritaten did not become her- manetho records a daughter of a king ruling at the end of the 18th dynasty) like hatshepsut and neferure.

SidneyF wrote:
See what I wrote above. What you just wrote didn't apply at all. You are in no position whatsoever to proclaim "what had to be done" or "what was usual" in the Amarna era, which was stripped of just about every past royal convention that had been established over many centuries.


there is no reason to see a literal interpretation of akhenaten and nefertiti as shu and tefnut. if you accept that, then you must accept the art style as literal too, and we know it was just a style. not everything traditional was rejected. the subject matter became more relaxed, but the daughters of the king were paraded, as they had been under previous pharaohs. no sons of akheneaten were paraded. nor where they previously. so that leaves two interpretations- one, akhenaten had no sons, or two, he stuck by convention and didn't show them in public. the royal women kept the same titles they were due. everything akhenaten did in depicting the king and queen as divine was just a step up from his father's reign. not only were previous and subsequent kings and their chief wives depicted as gods and goddesses, but amenhotep III went one better and raised one up from the nobility. many instances of mythology being used in royal propaganda and having no correlation to the genetics of the family using them.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
KV55 and the Younger Lady are Akhenaten and Nefertiti. The arguments against the identifications make a poor showing against the overwhelming evidence. Here are the main two:

a) The KV55 individual was too young at death.

But nobody knows for certain just how young and the estimates have varied. Akhenaten need not have been more than 30 years old when he died. He was the king added as an afterthought on the lintel over the doorway to the tomb of Kheruef. Amenhotep IV is there with his mother. He doesn't even have a wife yet but he has a prenomen, meaning he is a boy-king who might have been the co-regent of his father. While Amenhotep III is depicted as being considerably taller than Queen Tiye inside the tomb, his son is shown as barely taller than a very short woman. Akhenaten could have been less than 12 years old at the time, so the insisting that he must have been around 40 when he died is based on nothing.


The body of KV 55 is much younger than 30, and cannot be more than 25, with ages 19-23 reflected in most exanimations of the remains. With a 17 year reign, and the first child appearing before Year 1 (Smith and Redford 1976), this argues against KV 55 being identified with Akhenaten.

SidneyF wrote:
b) Nefertiti cannot be Akhenaten's sister because she is never styled "king's daughter".

And where is it written that this was mandatory? The reign of Akhenaten is an unusual one in several respects but in this respect it is expected to conform to previous times? In what previous time within the 18th Dynasty are the king and the queen touted as the personifications of Shu and Tefnut? [getting hard to type so will continue]


It's "mandatory" because KV 35YL is found to be by DNA testing to be a sibling of KV 55 and is a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, making her both a "king's daughter" /sAt nsw/ and "king's sister" (/snt nsw/) - both titles that Nefertiti did not possess. If she were KV 35YL, Nefertiti would have possessed those titles during her lifetime, but she does not. No matter how "non-traditional" Amarna may have been, royal titles such as "king's great royal wife" (/Hmt nsw wrt/), "king's daughter" (/sAt nsw/), etc. were still used, as they have hierarchal importance in royal court life (Troy 1986).

Further, as discussed before, there is NO evidence of a minimum of 6 individual births on the skeletal remains, of which Nefertiti is attested to have produced, which argues against the body being Nefertiti.

References:

Smith, R. W. and D. B. Redford 1976. The Akhenaten Temple Project. Vol. I: Initial Discoveries. Warminster: Aris and Phillips.

Troy, L. 1986. Patterns of Queenship: in ancient Egyptian myth and history. BOREAS 14. Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="neseret"]

Quote:
The body of KV 55 is much younger than 30, and cannot be more than 25, with ages 19-23 reflected in most exanimations of the remains. With a 17 year reign, and the first child appearing before Year 1 (Smith and Redford 1976), this argues against KV 55 being identified with Akhenaten.


You seem to have every confidence that skeletal remains can be aged with that great an accuracy but I'm sure many disagree--including Dr. Selim Ashraf, who viewed the bones with CTscan.

SidneyF wrote:
b) Nefertiti cannot be Akhenaten's sister because she is never styled "king's daughter".

And where is it written that this was mandatory? The reign of Akhenaten is an unusual one in several respects but in this respect it is expected to conform to previous times? In what previous time within the 18th Dynasty are the king and the queen touted as the personifications of Shu and Tefnut? [getting hard to type so will continue]


Quote:
It's "mandatory" because KV 35YL is found to be by DNA testing to be a sibling of KV 55 and is a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, making her both a "king's daughter" /sAt nsw/ and "king's sister" (/snt nsw/) - both titles that Nefertiti did not possess. If she were KV 35YL, Nefertiti would have possessed those titles during her lifetime, but she does not. No matter how "non-traditional" Amarna may have been, royal titles such as "king's great royal wife" (/Hmt nsw wrt/), "king's daughter" (/sAt nsw/), etc. were still used, as they have hierarchal importance in royal court life (Troy 1986).


If it was so "mandatory", then how do you explain Meritaten being only styled "king's wife" on the box element and in the scene with Smenkhkare?
Meritaten was a king's daughter without a doubt and was styled that way as a mere princess [but we never saw Nefertiti prior to her marriage]. Ankhesenamun wasn't called "king's daughter" after her marriage, either. I don't know, faced with this evidence, how you can insist that using all possible titles was "mandatory".

Quote:
Further, as discussed before, there is NO evidence of a minimum of 6 individual births on the skeletal remains, of which Nefertiti is attested to have produced, which argues against the body being Nefertiti.



And so you paid no attention whatsoever to the paper to which I gave the URL yesterday where it states that some women give birth without manifesting any grooves on the pubic bone whatsoever. This is not within your field of expertise! You never examined the mummy's x-rays and it wouldn't have done you any good had you seen them. You are STILL going by Dr. Brothwell's radio announcement where you claimed he stated the mummy looked to him like she had never given birth. Well??? Did she give birth or not? Is she the mother of Tutankhamun or not?
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This comes from here:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1,400128,400350#msg-400350



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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Nope. The king was styled "nTr nfr" in his titular but he only had a cult after he was dead. No other queen was called "nTrt" besides Nefertiti.


Quote:
every deceased king was identified as osiris, and every living king as horus. now you can't tell me every king in egyptian history was the son of a sibling union, and grandson of one as well.


That isn't even what I meant. Every king was called "Osiris" when he died, but so were ordinary people. But certain kings like Amenhotep I had a cult after their demise, were deified. If Amenhotep III was one of them is still debatable.

Quote:
a quote by david o'connor and eric cline in 'amenhotep III perspectives of his reign':

Quote:
Amenhotep III built a temple to her in Sedeinga in northern Sudan, where she was worshiped as a form of Hathor ... The temple at Sedeinga was the pendant to Amenhotep III's own, larger temple at Soleb, fifteen kilometres to the south (an arrangement followed a century later by Ramses II at Abu Simbel, where there are likewise two temples, the larger southern temple dedicated to the king, and the smaller, northern temple dedicated to the queen, Nefertiry, as Hathor)


Where the queens were shown worshipping Hathor! They were not Hathor, not even "a form of Hathor"--and meaning what?

[Why the queens didn't use "king's daughter" among their titles]

Quote:
in ankhesenamun's case, this is because of distancing herself from the royal house of amarna. open and shut case. i don't know about meritaten. if it is correct that under smenkhkare and neferneferuaten the worship of amun and return to the old ways began, then possibly meritaten may not have wanted to be associated with amarna. the other possibility may have be the set up of neferneferuaten and meritaten as great royal wife for her (if meritaten did not become her- manetho records a daughter of a king ruling at the end of the 18th dynasty) like hatshepsut and neferure.


No, you don't know about Meritaten. As I said yesterday [one can repeat oneself endlessly in this forum] on the box element Meritaten's name was associated with two coregents, obviously Akhenaten and Nefertiti. How would that be Meritaten distancing herself from the worship of the Aten--which just happened to be an element of her name and she never changed that as far as we know! Meritaten as queen of Smenkhkare were depicted in the tomb of Meryre II at Amarna--the rays of the Aten beaming down on them both.

[quote="SidneyF"] See what I wrote above. What you just wrote didn't apply at all. You are in no position whatsoever to proclaim "what had to be done" or "what was usual" in the Amarna era, which was stripped of just about every past royal convention that had been established over many centuries.


Quote:
there is no reason to see a literal interpretation of akhenaten and nefertiti as shu and tefnut


There is no reason to see a literal interpretation of Queen Tiye as "a form of Hathor", either. What a pity you can't read this!

http://books.google.com/books?id=tEM1Qz7nTLUC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=Akhenaten+AND+Shu&source=bl&ots=k0byLt_y0O&sig=61-PTXCQL-8OuLKkpzfCVKmFroA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w0tJU-qNNI2ayQHliIH4Cg&ved=0CGcQ6AEwDQ#v=onepage&q=Akhenaten%20AND%20Shu&f=false
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kylejustin]

Quote:
a quote by david o'connor and eric cline in 'amenhotep III perspectives of his reign':


Quote:
Amenhotep III built a temple to her in Sedeinga in northern Sudan, where she was worshiped as a form of Hathor ... The temple at Sedeinga was the pendant to Amenhotep III's own, larger temple at Soleb, fifteen kilometres to the south (an arrangement followed a century later by Ramses II at Abu Simbel, where there are likewise two temples, the larger southern temple dedicated to the king, and the smaller, northern temple dedicated to the queen, Nefertiry, as Hathor)


Quote:
so there's your proof tiye was worshipped as a goddess, and not just any goddess, but hathor herself.


How does it make sense? Nefertiry is shown being blessed by Hathor at Abu Simbel! How can one "be" Hathor and be shown with her at the same place? I'll find the image.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefertiry at Abu Simbel:

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