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Ta sherit
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:14 am    Post subject: Ta sherit Reply with quote

I am interested to see if anyone here knows what a normalised translation of ‘ta sherit’ is.

I know that it is used in relation to the names Meritaten, Ankhsenpaaten and Neferneferuaten, all showing firms with ‘ta sherit’ added. It is interepreted wherever I find it translated as ‘the younger’ of ‘junior’, but the best I can find as a direct translation is ‘the little one’. Sherit meaning little one, as far as I can establish via the Internet. The ‘ta = the’ I derive from ‘ta miu’, the name of an ancient Egyptian lady called Ta-miu’, translated as ‘the’ cat and from Prince Thutmoses’ famous pet cat,’Ta miu’.

What I am wondering is: is ‘the younger’ or ‘junior’ a modern concocted translation, or direct translations.

We have granddaughter and ghost children hypothesized, but what about children who are ‘the little one.’ Perhaps in the sense of ‘the baby’, or similar. Baby as in ‘baby of the family’ or a baby or toddler, full stop.

Other examples of the use of ‘ta sherit’ (forgetting Akhenaten’s daughters for the moment) would be appreciated. Would be nice to know what it’s usual usage in Ancient Egypt might have been.

NB I have posted a thread on this subject already, but it keeps coming up blank. So apologies this ends up being a case of duplicated threads!
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well a reply in this thread should make this the thread.

Trying to find examples of the use of tasherit outside of Amarna is like looking for hen's teeth. I'm sure there are examples, but I've never found any, and they likely exist in papers and not the sort of book, no matter how informative, available to the public. I have a vague memory that one of the sons of Ramesses II was a pasheri, but that is the closest to a "junior" that I've ever come across outside of Amarna.

A further question to be asked about the use of tasherit, is whether it is a term used only when the person is a child, or is it dropped on becoming an adult.

Also, while we see the term inscribed on stone blocks, would it have been used in full as a persons name when vocalized, for, as with Ta-Miaut, this is a modern shortened version of Ta ta-Miaut and Ta ta-sherit.

Ta ta Smile
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being used only when a child is young is actually a thing I am very curious to know. I find it hard to imagine the need to diffentiate between two children with the same name in a public space seems odd to me. Even if they were mother and daughter.

Indeed, I would think if Meritaten (as a hypothetical example) was mother of Meritaten Tasherit, then both would be named. If Kiya (see quite below) was mother of Meritaten Tasherit, how did such a child from a secondary wife ever get onto a public record?

Quoted from Anneke Bart.
“A King followed by a Queen and a Princess 
Titles of the Princess: the King's bodily daughter, his beloved Meritaten-tasherit, (who belongs) to the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, who lives on Maat, the Lord of the Two Lands (Neferkheperure - Waenre)|, born to the wife and great beloved, Kiya; 
<Usurped and re-inscribed for the King's Daughter Meritaten>”.

I am currently in conversation with a friend of mine, by name Luca, who is investigating possible translations of Tasherit... We are trying not to be swayed either way by current theories about who the three famous tasherits were with alleged famous namesakes, Meritaten, Ankhsenpaaten and Neferneruaten(tasherit).

So far we have come up with ‘small’ or ‘little’ daughter, or the usual ‘the younger’. ‘Junior’ does not seem immediately apparent as a straight translation. But early days.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's almost like there is a parallel family at Amarna, but both with the same father. So we have Akhenaten having children with his GRW Nefertiti and giving them a name, but also having children with Kiya and giving them the same names, but needing to differentiate them by use of ta tasherit, making them not "junior" in our usage, but more like subservient as they are born to the lesser queen.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, while this could be a thing for Meritaten Tasherit, it probably is not for the other tasherits, and Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit could be the daughter of Ankhesenpaaten, or not, as it depends on what age they really were at various stages, and when exactly Kiya left the scene. All we can say is that they have no mention before date X and no mention after date Y.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being used only when a child is young is actually a thing I am very curious to know. I find it hard to imagine the need to diffentiate between two children with the same name in a public space seems odd to me. Even if they were mother and daughter.

Indeed, I would think if Meritaten (as a hypothetical example) was mother of Meritaten Tasherit, then both would be named. If Kiya (see quite below) was mother of Meritaten Tasherit, how did such a child from a secondary wife ever get onto a public record?

Quoted from Anneke Bart.
“A King followed by a Queen and a Princess 
Titles of the Princess: the King's bodily daughter, his beloved Meritaten-tasherit, (who belongs) to the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, who lives on Maat, the Lord of the Two Lands (Neferkheperure - Waenre)|, born to the wife and great beloved, Kiya; 
<Usurped and re-inscribed for the King's Daughter Meritaten>”.

I am currently in conversation with a friend of mine, by name Luca, who is investigating possible translations of Tasherit... We are trying not to be swayed either way by current theories about who the three famous tasherits were with alleged famous namesakes, Meritaten, Ankhsenpaaten and Neferneruaten(tasherit).

So far we have come up with ‘small’ or ‘little’ daughter, or the usual ‘the younger’. ‘Junior’ does not seem immediately apparent as a straight translation. But early days.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
It's almost like there is a parallel family at Amarna, but both with the same father. So we have Akhenaten having children with his GRW Nefertiti and giving them a name, but also having children with Kiya and giving them the same names, but needing to differentiate them by use of ta tasherit, making them not "junior" in our usage, but more like subservient as they are born to the lesser queen.


A parallel family? You know, it does. And I don’t think I buy it. Employing Occam’s Razor, if we think Akhenaten is father all five children - and here I mean two Meritaten’s, two Ankhsenpaatens and one Neferneferuaten’s - then wouldn’t the simpler explanation be there were three daughters, not five?

Incidentally, I looked up my beloved Cyril Aldred. He translates ‘tasherit’ as ‘the less’.

So now I have: ‘the little one’ (which I partly divined through my searches); ‘the younger’; ‘junior’, ‘the small’ (as another meaning from Luca), and now; ‘the less’.

The little one approximately = small (daughter). But junior, the younger, and the less, are quite different to the little one or the small (daughter).

What is to made of these differences of translations? What, in fact, is the most direct translation according to the times, and not to theories of daughters, and who of them may or may not have had namesakes?
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
But, while this could be a thing for Meritaten Tasherit, it probably is not for the other tasherits, and Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit could be the daughter of Ankhesenpaaten, or not, as it depends on what age they really were at various stages, and when exactly Kiya left the scene. All we can say is that they have no mention before date X and no mention after date Y.


So many questions! But what is the clearest meaning (in translation) of Tasherit?

The little one?
The younger?
The less?
Junior?
The small (daughter)?

I think there is some confusion about how to translate Tasherit as.

And the translations seem to rely on the speculations of who the two sets of names Meritaten and Ankhsenpaaten belong to, assuming two sets of females. Why assume two sets as a starting point, specially as both sets have the same father as best we can guess at the moment? (Neferneferuaten Tasherit seems the only one to directly hint of ‘another’ Neferneferuaten being involved, and clearly there are two of them, mother and daughter).
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
It's almost like there is a parallel family at Amarna, but both with the same father. So we have Akhenaten having children with his GRW Nefertiti and giving them a name, but also having children with Kiya and giving them the same names, but needing to differentiate them by use of ta tasherit, making them not "junior" in our usage, but more like subservient as they are born to the lesser queen.


A parallel family? You know, it does. And I don’t think I buy it. Employing Occam’s Razor, if we think Akhenaten is father all five children - and here I mean two Meritaten’s, two Ankhsenpaatens and one Neferneferuaten’s - then wouldn’t the simpler explanation be there were three daughters, not five?

Incidentally, I looked up my beloved Cyril Aldred. He translates ‘tasherit’ as ‘the less’.

So now I have: ‘the little one’ (which I partly divined through my searches); ‘the younger’; ‘junior’, ‘the small’ (as another meaning from Luca), and now; ‘the less’.

The little one approximately = small (daughter). But junior, the younger, and the less, are quite different to the little one or the small (daughter).

What is to made of these differences of translations? What, in fact, is the most direct translation according to the times, and not to theories of daughters, and who of them may or may not have had namesakes?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until a definitive answer to this is forthcoming from Egyptology, my preference is to see tasherit as indicating that the owner of the name with the epithet is of lesser rank that the owner of the name without the epithet, and do not see it as having quite the same meaning as our "junior".

Now, it could be said to be semantics to say that, and I can see that, but I'm going on the basis of this terminology being used in a royal family in a society that puts a premium on your standing, of who your parents were. "Junior", or "The little one" etc, while making the same point, does not have the same gravitas. I think we should see the term as one word "tasherit", and I admit to putting in a hyphen here and there, and seeing it as The Tasherit. It's a nuance that I think makes the term less "flippant" than "junior"
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about all that status stuff. Indeed, it is why I suspect that any ‘lesser’ figure would not even get onto a public record. There would be no need to differentiate, because, in a public monument sense, only Akhenaten’s daughters would get onto public records. There can be no comparisons, in a sense, nor any need for differentiations to occur.

Regards the matter you raised elsewhere regards ‘ta tasherit’. Can you explain this a bit more. As I said elsewhere, I do not agree with you that to suggest it was pedantic. I want to get to the bottom of what the translation should be. And ta Tasherit presumanly is different again to ta sherit. I am already thinking ‘Meritaten the the-younger’. Or similar wild thoughts. Do you have a translation?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is in fact no double "ta", and I should have made that clear. I had been reading about Thutmose's cat and the double "ta" in her name stuck in my mind for some reason. However, I'm still happy with the way I have changed the nuance to take the name away from "junior" and to something more dignified, even if it does indicate that the holder of the name with the epithet is lesser than the person not having the epithet.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about the ‘junior’. To much a stretch in my opinion.

I am really not comfortable with the ‘lesser’ aspect I this Amarnan context. For me, I worry that it has more to do with translators trying to make it fit to the ’problem’ of ‘extra’ children given the same rather unique names as Ankhsenpaaten and Neferneferuaten, and maybe not to just pure translations of ta sherit in a normalised context for the period. Other usages in Ancient Egypt would be nice to know. I can get the idea of ‘ta’ being ‘the’ or similar, but how is sherit used generally, specially in that period?

I just got out of bed, and, as I type, I type an un-thought-out thought. Meritaten is a common enough firm, as in Merytre or Meritamon), but Ankhsenpaaten and Neferneferuaten, seem more unique. I am not aware of any Ankhsenamuns, except for Ankhsenpaaten’s later name alteration. And no Neferneferres or Neferneferamuns etc. The two names seem very much ‘Akhetaten’ names. Just an idle, sleepy thought. Maybe means nothing.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A factor to consider is just how they arrived at these names, and why would they need to use three names twice concurrently within the same family.

Normal naming convention is that the mother names the child at birth, not before or later, but when it pops out. According to the two Janssen's, if not named by the mother, somebody else present at the birth can name them. However, I would suspect that just like today, some thought may be given to this before the birth, and I'm certain this was the case with royalty. It's just to convenient within the 18th Dynasty for a GRW to cry out "Thoth is born" or "Amun is satisfied" a total of nine times between them. So I think the naming of a future king is not left to a random cry from his mother, or close relative in the birthing house.

With females we do see a certain randomness, or at least not a steady stream of Sitamun's for instance. So the three tasherit's really are odd, and I'm certain the names are not random, but deliberately chosen, which is a bit of a no brainer. So, why would you want two Meritatens, Ankhesenpaatens and Neferneferures. I cannot think of any rational reason, and it's not as if they could not think to "Atenize" other female names, Sitaten for instance.

On the normal naming convention we can see that Nefertiti fits into this. So instead of her name being said to refer to the arrival, in journey terms, of a beautiful woman, it refers to her arrival at birth. It's not difficult to imagine her mother, or other close relative, crying out at her birth "The beautiful one has come!". To me it fits very well.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds all very cogent to me. That’s why I truly suspect this ‘tasherit’ As ‘the younger’ business, and wonder if, as i have suggested earlier, maybe it is more like ‘the young one’, or ‘youngest one’, though ‘the small one’ or the ‘the little one’, or even an approximation of ‘small daughter’, which is one reading our friend Luca suggested as a possibility.

Following this line of reasoning (mere speculation, I know), can we compare this with all the semi-informal, quite intimate depictions of the happy royal family unit? Is Meritaten (for example) bding called Meritaten Tasherit a public example of a private intimacy, so to speak? Mum and Dad are happy to display her to the public as their ‘small one.’ Ankhsenapaaten and Neferneferuaten subsequently had their turn to be the family small one?
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