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Origins of Ancient Egypt
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Raia
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard of an Egyptian Stonehenge as well, but I thought it was another myth saying the one in England was tied to Ancient Egypt. The cattle worship would be good evidence to tie it to Ancient Egyptians.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy I had kinda ignored anything with that title, making the same assumption you did.

They are only naming it Egyptian stonehenge, because there was a stone calendar, with certain stones marking a solstice, or something like that.
The sites I mentioned are not trying to link Egypt to the British isles.

I had always been left with the feeling that Egypt developed rather rapidly out of not much before it. That always seemed counter intuitive. (I think you - Raia I mean Smile- mentioned that as well.)

This would show a much longer history, with further possible links to the ancient Saharan Civilizations.
Makes more sense to me to have Egyptian civilization slowly developing.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always listened to the theory of the Egyptian people developing out of the Libyan nomad-societies, mixed with Levantic people and strongly influenced by the Mesopotamians. U can actually see that last still in the tombs of the 1st dynasty (the way the walls were built, very euhm... "curly").

It would make a lot of sense to actually ascribe a major southern sahara influence to their origins though. And certainly black African influences can't be ignored as well. I'll give the example of the king's flagellum and staff. The flagellum is actually still used in tribal Mid-African societies as a symbol of kingship: it's basically a stick with the long hair of a bull attached to it to repel flies. Brings down the "mystic look" of it a bit, no? Just like the royal staff is actually influenced by the staff used to take hold of a rear paw of a bull or other livestock. Smile
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Raia
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The sites I mentioned are not trying to link Egypt to the British isles.


I knew that, I was just mentioning about other things I've heard--or maybe you knew that and I'm just interpreting things wrong... Embarassed
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't blush. Smile

I think she meant when passing by the mentioning of "Egyptian Stonehenge" u have two different possible contents: either the serious one she mentioned or the more euhm... theoretical one, actually linking Egypt to English Stonehenge. Assuming they were both the latter one she never really noticed the first one. Smile

I often have the same thing. For instance when looking up something about Hatshepsut, I disregard half of what I find because they appear too "feministly" viewed - no offense. Sometimes I miss decent things because of that though.

What exactly is the theory about Egyptians being involved in Stonehenge?
Both I'm interested in. Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was trying like crazy to formulate an intelligent response to Raia's question, when I realized that Segereh had just done it for me. Very Happy

Thanks. That's exactly what I meant. (You said it better, then I would have.)

Quote:
the king's flagellum and staff. The flagellum is actually still used in tribal Mid-African societies as a symbol of kingship: it's basically a stick with the long hair of a bull attached to it to repel flies. Brings down the "mystic look" of it a bit, no? Just like the royal staff is actually influenced by the staff used to take hold of a rear paw of a bull or other livestock


That does put an interesting spin on it.

It makes more sense than Egypt bursting on the scene out of nowhere.
Hope they find more sites like the one in Napta.
Also puts the theories of the age of the sphinx in an interesting light.
Maybe a leftover of an old statue of a cow, that was recarved as a sphinx?
I know, don't open that can of worms Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What exactly is the theory about Egyptians being involved in Stonehenge?
Both I'm interested in.


Just don't tell me it's Disney Land.....
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the Sphinx, there's a thread about it being a recarved natural wind-eroded rock formation.
I've also heard of this Egyptian stone circle not just being aligned with the solstices, but with the stars too. Including Orion. Wink I know Seg's probably thinking 'oh no, not Bauval-ish stuff!!!' but this wasn't discovered by him, but by some other people. I think there's a link to the circumpolars too. they had something about it on TV, and they even mentioned a black mummy found in Libya which is about 1000 years older than Egyptian mummies.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I think you both just named some of the most very intruiging and controversial topics in modern day Egyptology. Congratulations! Smile

I must admit, I've never really put a second thought into how Egypt came to light. It is not out of a sudden, as for instance the very decent site of http://xoomer.virgilio.it/francescoraf/index.htm surely shows, but still... what exactly happened before the 0st and 00st Dynasties? Smile

Things like the Napta-finds and the black Lybian mummy are very interesting paths to go on and you could actually go further, more to the West and South for instance to look for traces of influence on Egypt's "foundation". That's really a completely open world out there.

Does anyone of you know a little more about the Northern African nomads?
These Berbers and Tuareg for instance appear to be more ancient than any European civilisation.
I think that's a fascinating thing to notice.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I was trying like crazy to formulate an intelligent response to Raia's question, when I realized that Segereh had just done it for me. Very Happy Thanks. That's exactly what I meant. (You said it better, then I would have.)

Wow... I actually expected to get a remark on "stealing your posts". Smile
Just kidding, but I won't make a habit of answering in your place. Wink
It's not so very polite.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like the idea that ancient Egypt was formed from a real melting pot of different cultures and peoples, not just one. I've seen people say that there was a pure Egyptian race (which may not even come from Egypt at all, but maybe from the East, Europe or even *shudder* Disney Land) but I've never been that comfortable with the idea.
There were 2 programmes on tv that said that ancient Egypt was derived from or influenced by Saharan and Sub Saharan African prehistoric cultures. One was the black mummy, and the other is that there are hills and rocks in the desert that resemble pyramids and sphinxes, and may have influenced the man made ones. Both programmes were based on the theory that the Sahara may have been a savanna inhabited by people, but then climate changes caused it to become desert, so the people had to go to the only remaining constant source of water-the Nile. One of those programmes mentioned cattle worship, and another one even said that they have found an ancient religious looking depiction of a jackal in or near a tomb, no doubt the predecessor of Anubis. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I've heard about the Anubis-predecessor as well! Never seen the actual depiction or statuette though. I have this map in a very decent book from the K├Ânemann-publishers (always very nice books), showing the "slides" of green, fertile ground into desert lands. These date from since the 5th milennium BC. Given that the Egyptian highdays began around 3100-3000BC and that there would've been an era of the "two kingdoms", long enough to stay in the common conscience for up to the Late Period, really supports the theory of Egypt mainly becoming habited in this period. Meaning: the people doing so were very probably forced by these climate change. Meaning: they probably did come from the West for a very large part. Smile

Long piece to just say: I don't believe in a monogenous Egyptian race as well.
And there's a lot to say for a large-scale immigration from the East.
And seeing how old some of the modern day Eastern cultures are...
They surely might be related in a way.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you mean East, you mean Mesepotamia and Middle east right? because the civilisations there are indeed very old...

and that programme on TV did show the Anubis depiction!! Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean "both Easts" actually: Mesopotamia surely had an influence on Ancient Egypt, but the cultures East of Egypt itself surely had too. I'll try to make a comparison with pictures once, between the building of walls in Egypt and Mesopotamia around 3000BC. I think they look very much the same and I doubt that's really just coincidence.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And damn... I watch too little tv... Crying or Very sad
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