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Sphinxy questions
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:51 pm    Post subject: Sphinxy questions Reply with quote

Here's some sphinx related questions:

What is this story about the king who dreamed about the Sphinx?

What's the Sphinx's real name? Was it something like Horakty or Horus of the Horizon? And i've never heard of the name given on this board (Abu something, I think, sounds like an Arabic name.)

How did the sphinx really lose his nose? Be truthful here...
I think it was simply wind erosion, like I've discussed on another topic here. But I've heard that it was shot off by a cannon from Napoleon's troops...you see countless movies joking about how the sphinx lost his nose, but I want to know the truth.
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Raia
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard both theories about how the nose dissappeared, but I think the one I've heard more of was about Napoleon's troops firing the cannon. I may be wrong, but I think that's what happened--if they really do know, or they both could just be theories.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it was Thutmosis IV who put up a stela sying that the gods appeared to him in a dream (may have been Harakty, not sure) who told him to dig the Sphinx out of the sand. After doing this the god rewarded him with the throne of egypt or something like that.

I think the idea is that there may have been another crown prince before Thutmosis IV and this is some story about how the gods chose him to rule.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Sphinxy questions Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
What is this story about the king who dreamed about the Sphinx?

Thutmose IV - when still a prince - was hunting down the desert when he went taking a nap at (ancient) Gizeh. There he dreamed of the Sphinx, addressing him in the form of Harakhty, telling him he'd know success and divine assistance whenever needed, if he'd only dig out the sand-covered body of the sphinx. When he became pharaoh, he did so and made a stela, which if I'm not mistaken, still stands between the paws of the sphinx, commemorating what the king did.

Isi wrote:
What's the Sphinx's real name? Was it something like Horakty or Horus of the Horizon? And i've never heard of the name given on this board (Abu something, I think, sounds like an Arabic name.)

Since he depicted the god Re-Harakhty (Ra, Horizon Horus) he "held the same name".
Arab sources called him Abu el-Gol (could be written wrong): Father of Fear.

Isi wrote:
How did the sphinx really lose his nose? Be truthful here...
I think it was simply wind erosion, like I've discussed on another topic here. But I've heard that it was shot off by a cannon from Napoleon's troops...you see countless movies joking about how the sphinx lost his nose, but I want to know the truth.

Somebody dynamited it, in search for treasures.
Can't recollect if it was an Arab or a French "enterprise".
If annie beats me to this one as well... Evil or Very Mad
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL Just did Laughing

At least our versions seems to agree with one another.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... came close...
Thutmose IV was already king when erecting the stela.
So I'm not sure if he was still a prince when actually digging it up.
I've heard the same of "becoming king" though.
Should look up the stela, but I've seen enough of em for a day. Cool
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a nice article about him in one of the KMT journals. I will look it up when I get home.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard another theory that Arab troops shot off the nose because they thought the sphinx was a heathen god and it was disrespectful to Islam.

Is it true that the Sphinx was called Harmachis or something, as well?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harmachis is the same as Horakhty actually.
Horakhty comes from Hr-(m)-axt (Hor (em) achet):
Horus of the Horizon or Horizon Horus (sounds better).
Harmachis is a Greek variant of this Horemachet. Wink
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a part from the Dream Stele:

"Now the statue of the very great Khepri (the Great Sphinx) is resting in this place, great of fame, sacred of respect, the shade of Ra resting on him. Memphis and every city on its two sides came to him, their arms in adoration to his face, bearing great offerings for his ka. One of these days it happened that price Tuthmosis came travelling at the time of midday. He rested in the shadow of the great god. (Sleep and) dream (took possession of him) at the moment the sun was at zenith. Then he found the majesty of this noble god speaking from his own mouth like a father speaks to his son, and saying "Look at me, observe me, my son Tuthmosis. I am your father, Horemakhet-Khepri-Ra-Atum. I shall give to you the kingship (upon the land before the living)... (Behold, my condition is like one in illness), all (my limbs being ruined). The sand of the desert, upon which I used to be, (now) confronts me, and it is in order to cause that you do what is in my heart that I have waited."

So: genuine name Horemakhet-Khepri-Ra-Atum.
They all revolve around the basic principle of "sunlight".
Horemakhet was the Horizon Horus - either rising or setting sun.
Atum is often linked to the sun as a life-creating force.
Khepri was the physical appearance of sunrise.
Ra... euhm... was the sun.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yeah, apparently Thutmose IV still was a prince, but not when the stela was erected - he's shown with the Chepresj or Blue Crown on the stela and he gets named as "his majesty" and all the relevant royal titles.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stela still stands there.


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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found something nice, to line it all up:
The Usual Suspects...

Napoleon's troops shot the nose off the Sphinx in 1798:
- for fun
- because they were racist hooligans
- both of the above

British troops shot the nose off the Sphinx during:
- World War I
- World War II

German troops shot the nose off the Sphinx during World War II.

The Mamelukes shot the nose off the Sphinx.

Arab conquerors knocked the nose off the Sphinx in 693.

An Islamic cleric, Sa'im al-dahr, had the nose knocked off the Sphinx in 1378.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are apparently legends as long as they involve human destruction of the Sphinx's nose. Currently it's heard a lot that a "large unsupported piece of soft limestone dating from 4500 B.C.E. is unlikely to survive the elements in a pristine state". Good point...

What about these myths then? The Sphinx was well known to European sources before Napoleon and no contemporary account describes the Sphinx having a nose before Napoleon arrived or winding up in a noseless condition after his departure. Napoleon was not really the most popular guy in Britain and there they certainly would have made propaganda of it having occurred during Napoleon's stay. This means however that the British and German troops have an alibi as well. Leaves us with the Mamelukes, the earlier Arab conquerors or the Islamic cleric, Sa'im al-dahr

Both the Arab conquerors and Sa'im al-dahr are described in contemporary accounts as doing violence to the Sphinx. In Sa'im al-dahr's case, the nose is specifically mentioned. It is difficult to judge the state of the nose before and after their actions (assuming the accounts are true.)
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



This drawing was made by Frederick Lewis Norden in 1737, published in 1755.
That is a nice 40 years before the arrival of Napoleon.
So it must've been earlier.
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