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Horemheb
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Montu
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We have no evidence at any time that Tey or Mutnedjmet were related to the royal family ot Amarna.


oh right i thought Mutnedjmet was Nefertiti's sister ... or even a half sister ... Only this would expalin how Horemheb was able to legitimise his reign - with the royal lineage passing through the female line he could have married the daughter of Pharaoh (Ay) and thus he becomes the rightful heir and the dynasty continues.

With Horemheb having no children and Ramses effectively coming in from outside the dynasty ends and a new one begins ....
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But why should Horemheb have bothered to emploi the oracle of the "Lord of Hnes" to confirm him as king when this was already achieved by marrying a King`s daughter?
And his wife would certainly have had a "King`s Daughter" title had she been the previous king`s (Aye`s) daughter.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good point, but if she was ay's daughter, she may have been like ankhsenamun and not have wanted to be associated with her family. especially if she knew of his plans to erase them from history.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... but if she was ay's daughter, she may ... not have wanted to be associated with her family. especially if she knew of his plans to erase them from history.

Apart from currently no real evidence exist Nefertiti's sister and the second wife of Horemheb to identify as one person, then she may realize, however, hardly a claim to the throne for Horemheb because of here ancestry ...

Lutz
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
good point, but if she was ay's daughter, she may have been like ankhsenamun and not have wanted to be associated with her family. especially if she knew of his plans to erase them from history.

I`m not sure if Horemheb wanted to erase them already from history or if he only "re-used" their monuments for himself as was not uncommon practice.
But if he on the one hand wanted to be associated to the previous king via his wife and on the other hand wanted her to distance herself from her father it would be quite paradox.
The case of Ankhesenamun was different: Tut did not need her legitimization as he was a king`s son himself, so they could afford to distance themselves from Akhenaten by dropping her King`s Daughter title.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but horemheb cant legitimize his reign by marrying mutnofret, as she doesnt appear to be royal.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
but horemheb cant legitimize his reign by marrying mutnofret, as she doesnt appear to be royal.


I don`t think she was royal either, I was rather reasoning from the point of view of those who still believe she was Nefertiti`s sister.

May be we should finally get over it and accept that great Horemheb simply fell in love with a temple singer and married her love10
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also belong to the party "Mutnodjmet=Mutbenret". A "couple's reign" arrangement (possibly with the males succeeding the males and females succeeding he females, with father/mother-son/brother or uncle/aunt-nephew/niece relationship) seems to be characteristic of the end of the 18th Dynasty, from Amenhotep III/Tiye, Akhenaton/Nefertiti, Smenkhkare (AnkhKheperure)/Meritaton (Ankhetkheperure?), Tutankhamun/Ankhesenamun, Aye/Tey. Thus, I believe that Horemheb's queen was related to the queen Tey as a sister (to which she would be too young for) or a daughter or niece (more likely).
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It all depends on why these inter-familial relations took place to begin with.

This is purely speculative on my part, but if the brother and sister marriages were a re-enactment of some of the relationships of the deities (Re and his wife or daughter Hathor), then after being declared royal by the gods, wouldn't that imply some level of "being royal" for Horemheb's family as well?

And if Amun declared Horemheb king (which he seems to claim in his coronation inscription), then marrying his own sister or cousin and thereby emulating the gods could be possible as well?

[the idea that the marriages emulated those of the gods is mentioned in O'Conner and Cline's book about Amenhotep III]
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

And if Amun declared Horemheb king (which he seems to claim in his coronation inscription), then marrying his own sister or cousin and thereby emulating the gods could be possible as well?


Yes, as Thutmose I did!


anneke wrote:

[the idea that the marriages emulated those of the gods is mentioned in O'Conner and Cline's book about Amenhotep III]


But emulating WHICH gods? I think that the original model was the Osiriac triad, but I also think that AIII should left them aside to favor Re-Horakhty and his quasi-symbiontic relationship with Iousas/Hathor. That (the statement of a new theology of the royal power) should be behind of the double divinization of himself and Tiye, replicated by their immediate successors and no need of brother/sister marriage.

It possible helped the Ramesside ascension to the power, that should be suported by the association of heiresses from the Tiye/Tey lineage.
From this point of view Ramses II made his homework quite well.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, Meritaton and Ankhesenamun succeeded their mother, not their father. If Nefertiti didn't had all those daughters (in that case they were very desired) she should be succeeded by a sister or a niece. Tey should be an alternative successor to Tiye (and thus her important role in the court and in Aye´s Amarna tomb depictions), maybe also a niece of hers, and was the next in the succession just after Nefertiti and her daughters.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amenhotep III was emulating Re and Hathor.
I have heard the theory before that the Nubian temples of Amenhotep III and Tiye in Soleb(?) and Sedeinga where Tiye is depicted as the personification of the "Eye of Ra" (a form of Hathor) points to this.

It is interesting that indeed Ramesses II did something similar. The Abu Simbel temples are another "his and her set" of temples. And the inscriptions make it very clear that Nefertari's temple is dedicated to Hathor.
Nefertari and quite a few of the princesses were chantresses - and in the case of Meritamun even a dancer? - in service of Hathor.

And Queen Mutnodjemet was a Songstress of Hathor (hsyt-nt-hwt-hrw) according to Grajetzki. Too bad we have no monuments dedicated to her (that we know of). The depiction of Mutnedjemet as a sphinx on the side of her throne does suggest she may have been cast in a 'protective role" (from a religious point of view and symbolically speaking)

But that still does not give any real solid clues as to her identity Smile

I personally do not really believe there's a female line they were trying to maintain. Child mortality was too high to make that a reasonable approach. But a woman well trained in temple lore (singing, dancing, performing rituals) to play her role would make some sense maybe?
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Toth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Amenhotep III was emulating Re and Hathor.
I have heard the theory before that the Nubian temples of Amenhotep III and Tiye in Soleb(?) and Sedeinga where Tiye is depicted as the personification of the "Eye of Ra" (a form of Hathor) points to this.

It is interesting that indeed Ramesses II did something similar. The Abu Simbel temples are another "his and her set" of temples. And the inscriptions make it very clear that Nefertari's temple is dedicated to Hathor.
Nefertari and quite a few of the princesses were chantresses - and in the case of Meritamun even a dancer? - in service of Hathor.

And Queen Mutnodjemet was a Songstress of Hathor (hsyt-nt-hwt-hrw) according to Grajetzki. Too bad we have no monuments dedicated to her (that we know of). The depiction of Mutnedjemet as a sphinx on the side of her throne does suggest she may have been cast in a 'protective role" (from a religious point of view and symbolically speaking)

But that still does not give any real solid clues as to her identity Smile

I personally do not really believe there's a female line they were trying to maintain. Child mortality was too high to make that a reasonable approach. But a woman well trained in temple lore (singing, dancing, performing rituals) to play her role would make some sense maybe?


Now, if the two of you would go to an uninhabited island with just one high speed Internet connection, I think the result would be a great book proving that in fact royal heritage was in the female lineage and not in the male lineage, and that could possibly even mean rewriting AE-history.

Richard, aka
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to prove something I do not even believe in to begin with?
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Toth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I'm going to prove something I do not even believe in to begin with?


Then I read something in your responses that wasn't there, apologies.


Richard
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