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Horemheb
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Toth
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
Sothis has a point also. But at least he tried. And probably was in a way successful. As in reorganizing the army, something he started already under the reign of Ay (or even sooner). Let’s say he evened the path for his successors, Ramses I, reigned too short to pick the fruits of his efforts, but Sethi I and Ramses II, surely could profit from what Horemheb started.


Oops, I wrote my reply - the Ramesses/qadesh paragraph - into Robson's
Sorry for the mix up
Richard
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really great article worth reading, has great relevance to this thread:

Dr. Jacobus van Dijk "Horemheb, Prince Regent of
Tut'ankhamun" (pp. 10-64). See:
http://www.jacobusvandijk.nl/docs/Horemheb_chapter.pdf

Probably the best article I've read on Horemheb, providing an overview of all the evidence in existence for his career before he became Pharoah and an excellent description of his Memphite tomb.

Read the full article for some interesting ideas about what happened at the end of Tutankhamun's reign.
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Toth
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Really great article worth reading, has great relevance to this thread:

Dr. Jacobus van Dijk "Horemheb, Prince Regent of
Tut'ankhamun" (pp. 10-64). See:
http://www.jacobusvandijk.nl/docs/Horemheb_chapter.pdf

Probably the best article I've read on Horemheb, providing an overview of all the evidence in existence for his career before he became Pharoah and an excellent description of his Memphite tomb.

Read the full article for some interesting ideas about what happened at the end of Tutankhamun's reign.


An interesting document, you can say that for sure. Although it will lead the reader back to the days of Tutankhamun and Ay, telling us what happened in those days, but not necessarily what Horemheb's role in all this was, the document also tells about the devastation of his predecessor's monuments / tombs which gives me an impression of a more violent Horemheb that I originally had! (If all those before him and after him had done so, there wouldn't have been a monument / tomb with n inscription left to study, since this was not common practice before or after Horemheb, I think we safely may assume that was a deliberate act by order of Horemheb. And that would put him in a very negative perspective IMO

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great article!! Thanks for posting. The Metropolitan Museum of Art is opening a new exhibit in November dedicated to Horemheb's reign...now I can't wait for November. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice! Thank you for sharing Smile
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The time reading this article is really well spent, thanks for sharing!

One of the few weak points is the question if Horemheb really bore the title "Eldest Son of Horus" which would make him undoubtedly Crown Prince to Tutankhamun. He claims this title in his coronation stela but it does not appear anywhere in his tomb. I think had he really been entitled to call himself "Eldest Son", he would have displayed it at more than one places in his pre-royal tomb. The fact that he doesn`t indicates to me that he was not assigned this specific title.
The mention of an "Eldest Son" in Maya`s tomb is apparently far from secure and IMO not sufficient to prove Horemheb`s title as Eldest Son.

I am not sure if the title "Iripat" when standing on its own has the meaning of "crown Prince" as is claimed in the article. Maybe someone can clarify this.

Interesting the thought that Horemheb might have continued to extend his Saqqara tomb even after his coronation and started his tomb in VoK later.

Unfortunately the article does not shed light on Horemheb`s pre-Tut career. I feel certain that he had at least a few years experience in important administrative and/or military functions because he cannot have been a Mr Nobody to have been given that much power right from the start of Tut`s reign on. But, if he wasn`t Pa-Aten-em-heb then why do we know nothing of his earlier career?
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Toth
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps we should ask the man, after all, it's the university of Groningen the only thing we would need is an email address (I have one now, so if you have questions you want to ask him, send them by PM (or email if you happen to have the address or can see the address; no need to translate them into Dutch, I'll take care of that. BTW: Why do all these guys look alike? Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And why "Eldest Son of Horus" (is that really the translation for s3 Smsw hr?) and not "Royal Eldest Son" (s3-nswt tpy/wr) when even the viceroy of Kush is addressed as "Royal Son"?
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Toth
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
And why "Eldest Son of Horus" (is that really the translation for s3 Smsw hr?) and not "Royal Eldest Son" (s3-nswt tpy/wr) when even the viceroy of Kush is addressed as "Royal Son"?


Added to the message, let 's see if more questions will follow

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Robson wrote:
And why "Eldest Son of Horus" (is that really the translation for s3 Smsw hr?) and not "Royal Eldest Son" (s3-nswt tpy/wr) when even the viceroy of Kush is addressed as "Royal Son"?


Added to the message, let 's see if more questions will follow

Richard, aka


Surely more questions will follow. Mine is related to the "Eldest Son of Horus" question. IMO this title is much stronger than all of the "King`s Son" related titles and probably stronger than "Iripat" as well as it refers directly to the King as the divine incarnation of Horus. So the Eldest Son would without doubt be the next Horus on the throne.
I wonder if it can possibly be that this title was conferred to a person other than the king`s bodily son and in Horemheb`s case even a commoner. I suspect that this one was later made up by Horemheb.
Can you please ask for me if this could have been possible and if there are any known cases throughout AE history were a person other than a king`s bodily son was called "Eldest Son of Horus"?
And can you ask if there are indications that Horemheb could have been the Pa-Aten-em-heb from Akhenaten`s reign after all?

Thanx!
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Toth
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Toth wrote:
Robson wrote:
And why "Eldest Son of Horus" (is that really the translation for s3 Smsw hr?) and not "Royal Eldest Son" (s3-nswt tpy/wr) when even the viceroy of Kush is addressed as "Royal Son"?


Added to the message, let 's see if more questions will follow

Richard, aka


Surely more questions will follow. Mine is related to the "Eldest Son of Horus" question. IMO this title is much stronger than all of the "King`s Son" related titles and probably stronger than "Iripat" as well as it refers directly to the King as the divine incarnation of Horus. So the Eldest Son would without doubt be the next Horus on the throne.
I wonder if it can possibly be that this title was conferred to a person other than the king`s bodily son and in Horemheb`s case even a commoner. I suspect that this one was later made up by Horemheb.
Can you please ask for me if this could have been possible and if there are any known cases throughout AE history were a person other than a king`s bodily son was called "Eldest Son of Horus"?
And can you ask if there are indications that Horemheb could have been the Pa-Aten-em-heb from Akhenaten`s reign after all?

Thanx!


Translated and added, although one part of your questions doubles with Robson

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve read the PDF file with much interest and thanks for posting. I’m also eager to know something more about his pre-Tutankhamen period. Apparently he was already in function at the court under the reign of Amenhotep III, under Amenhotep IV (Akhenaton) he became General of the army.

Source “Cronicle of the pharaohs”, Peter A Clayton, 1994
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Toth
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
I’ve read the PDF file with much interest and thanks for posting. I’m also eager to know something more about his pre-Tutankhamen period. Apparently he was already in function at the court under the reign of Amenhotep III, under Amenhotep IV (Akhenaton) he became General of the army.

Source “Cronicle of the pharaohs”, Peter A Clayton, 1994


Do you happen to know whether Horemheb is equal to Pa-Aten-em-heb??

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
I’ve read the PDF file with much interest and thanks for posting. I’m also eager to know something more about his pre-Tutankhamen period. Apparently he was already in function at the court under the reign of Amenhotep III, under Amenhotep IV (Akhenaton) he became General of the army.

Source “Cronicle of the pharaohs”, Peter A Clayton, 1994


Do you happen to know whether Horemheb is equal to Pa-Aten-em-heb??

Richard, aka


Apparently there are 3 men called Pa-Aten-em-heb around the same time when Horemheb lived. Off which one held some of the same titles of Horemheb. But there is still a lot of debate under Egyptologists whether Pa-Aten-em-heb and Horemheb are one and the same.
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Toth
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
I’ve read the PDF file with much interest and thanks for posting. I’m also eager to know something more about his pre-Tutankhamen period. Apparently he was already in function at the court under the reign of Amenhotep III, under Amenhotep IV (Akhenaton) he became General of the army.

Source “Cronicle of the pharaohs”, Peter A Clayton, 1994


Do you happen to know whether Horemheb is equal to Pa-Aten-em-heb??

Richard, aka


Apparently there are 3 men called Pa-Aten-em-heb around the same time when Horemheb lived. Off which one held some of the same titles of Horemheb. But there is still a lot of debate under Egyptologists whether Pa-Aten-em-heb and Horemheb are one and the same.


Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet Idea Idea

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