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Horemheb
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Ranoferhotep
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:

Quote:
Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet


Tomb 24 at Amarna belonged to Pa-Aten-em-heb and states some of the titles that Horemheb held.
More to find about him is here:

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Paatenemheb[/quote]
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:

Quote:
Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet


Tomb 24 at Amarna belonged to Pa-Aten-em-heb and states some of the titles that Horemheb held.
More to find about him is here:

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Paatenemheb
[/quote]

Interesting that the first two illustrations point to Anneke's site.

Richard
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Ranoferhotep
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:

Quote:
Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet


Tomb 24 at Amarna belonged to Pa-Aten-em-heb and states some of the titles that Horemheb held.
More to find about him is here:

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Paatenemheb


Interesting that the first two illustrations point to Anneke's site.

Richard[/quote]

I know, thatís why I provided the link Very Happy

But as far as I can conclude there is no closing evidence that Pa-Aten-em-heb from tomb 24 is the later Horemheb. To be honest, I find it a bit strange, as I understood from the pdf. he started building a tomb in Saqqarah in the time of Akhenaton, why would he have constructed yet another tomb in Amarna and under another name?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:

Quote:
Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet


Tomb 24 at Amarna belonged to Pa-Aten-em-heb and states some of the titles that Horemheb held.
More to find about him is here:

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Paatenemheb


Interesting that the first two illustrations point to Anneke's site.

Richard


I know, that’s why I provided the link Very Happy

But as far as I can conclude there is no closing evidence that Pa-Aten-em-heb from tomb 24 is the later Horemheb. To be honest, I find it a bit strange, as I understood from the pdf. he started building a tomb in Saqqarah in the time of Akhenaton, why would he have constructed yet another tomb in Amarna and under another name?[/quote]

I think that would be a good question to ask Dr. van Dijk, what do you think Idea

Richard, aka
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Ranoferhotep
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:

Quote:
Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet


Tomb 24 at Amarna belonged to Pa-Aten-em-heb and states some of the titles that Horemheb held.
More to find about him is here:

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Paatenemheb


Interesting that the first two illustrations point to Anneke's site.

Richard


I know, thatís why I provided the link Very Happy

But as far as I can conclude there is no closing evidence that Pa-Aten-em-heb from tomb 24 is the later Horemheb. To be honest, I find it a bit strange, as I understood from the pdf. he started building a tomb in Saqqarah in the time of Akhenaton, why would he have constructed yet another tomb in Amarna and under another name?


I think that would be a good question to ask Dr. van Dijk, what do you think Idea

Richard, aka[/quote]

I think this is a question worth asking. Also strange Dr. Van Dijk made no mentioning about Pa-Aten-em-heb and tomb 24. Or that information was not yet available, or he sees no connection?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
I am not sure if the title "Iripat" when standing on its own has the meaning of "crown Prince" as is claimed in the article. Maybe someone can clarify this.


The general term in question is /r-pa.t/, which means the equivalent of "nobleman", and possibly "count" (Ward 1982 and 1986). The feminine version is /r.t-pa.t/ which Ward states means "countess" (Ward 1986: 46). Horemheb's title is /Hry rpa.t/, which means "highest of noblemen/counts."

So, the translation of /r-pa.t/ as "hereditary prince" has been replaced more modernly in Egyptology as meaning "hereditary nobleman." One has to recall, however, that such titles were often granted by boon, so there's no way of knowing if Horemheb was a /r-pa.t/ by birth or by boon of the king.
Interestingly, neither wife of Horemheb (Amenia or Mutnedjmet) is known to have had the title of /r.t-pa.t/ "noblewoman."

As I noted in another post to this thread, it's clear from the Coronation Decree of Horemheb (found on a double statue of Horemheb with his Great Royal Wife Mutnedjmet, now rising in the Turin Museum) that Horemheb himself held that much of his political position to a preceding (Amarna/post-Amarna) king who appointed him as /ra-Hry/ (Chief spokesman) of the entire land, and was (in Horemheb's words) "...(the) hereditary prince of the entire land; he was unique, without his equal." (Breasted 2001c (1906): 15; ß 25; Murnane 1995: 231; No. 106).

In reality, the term "hereditary prince" is probably a mistranslation: the term is /Hry rpa.t/ - in short, a position probably in modern times called "Deputy Regent," a position where a non-royal person holds the highest administrative function, second only to a royal ruler.

Egyptologists have also questioned whether the /Hry rpa.t/ "Deputy Regent" title was added proleptically (after the fact) to give "justification" for Horemheb to assume the throne of Egypt. This is not an uncommon practice in Egypt as well, and is often done by kings who had no other direct right to be king. As far as is known, only Horemheb's Coronation Decree announces the /Hry rpa.t/ title for Horemheb: had the title been a public one (as indicated in the decree), one would think other monuments would show the title being associated with Horemheb throughout his career under Tutankhamun (but it is not).

The fact that Horemheb also uses the "oracular" form of assuming the throneship (he states in his Coronation Decree that the "Lord of Hnes" declared him king) is an additional form of "justification" used by kings with dodgy claims to the throne as well.

My feeling is that Horemheb uses the /Hry-rpa.t/ "Deputy Regent" title in the same manner that Ay previously had used his /it nTr/ title - to associate himself with the royal household and thus claim some form of "relation" to Tutankhamun in order to justify his later assumption of the throne as king.

Reference:

Breasted, J. H. 2001 (1906). Ancient Records of Egypt. The Nineteenth Dynasty. (Vol. 3). Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press.

Murnane, W. J. 1995. Texts from the Amarna Period in Egypt. Society of Biblical Literature: Writings from the Ancient World 5. Atlanta: Scholars Press.

Ward, W. A. 1982. Index of Administrative and Religious Titles of the Middle Kingdom. Beirut: American University of Beirut.

_________. 1986. Essays on Feminine Titles of the Middle Kingdom and Related Subjects. Beirut: American University of Beirut.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always, Katherine / Neseret we have to be grateful for the information you're sharing with us; although I have to confess that I am too tired to see how the new (to me it is) information will influence my message to Dr. van Dijk.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Neseret, as always you provide us with much of your knowledge. And certainly, itís interesting how translations are seen in a new way. May I ask you if you can give an answer to the question about Pa-Aten-em-heb being Horemheb?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:

Quote:
Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet


Tomb 24 at Amarna belonged to Pa-Aten-em-heb and states some of the titles that Horemheb held.
More to find about him is here:

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Paatenemheb

Interesting that the first two illustrations point to Anneke's site.

Richard


I know, that’s why I provided the link Very Happy

But as far as I can conclude there is no closing evidence that Pa-Aten-em-heb from tomb 24 is the later Horemheb. To be honest, I find it a bit strange, as I understood from the pdf. he started building a tomb in Saqqarah in the time of Akhenaton, why would he have constructed yet another tomb in Amarna and under another name?


I think that would be a good question to ask Dr. van Dijk, what do you think Idea

Richard, aka



I think this is a question worth asking. Also strange Dr. Van Dijk made no mentioning about Pa-Aten-em-heb and tomb 24. Or that information was not yet available, or he sees no connection? Oh but he is publishing some 30+ years, and not all (quite a few though) are PDFs.

I will formulate the question tomorrow, I am - already - too tired and keep myself up and running with strong coffee Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:

Quote:
Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet


Tomb 24 at Amarna belonged to Pa-Aten-em-heb and states some of the titles that Horemheb held.
More to find about him is here:

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Paatenemheb
[/quote]

and KV57 too? look here: Horemheb Also with details

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Ranoferhotep
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Ranoferhotep wrote:
Toth wrote:

Quote:
Any sources our researchers may not have found... yet


Tomb 24 at Amarna belonged to Pa-Aten-em-heb and states some of the titles that Horemheb held.
More to find about him is here:

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Paatenemheb


and KV57 too? look here: Horemheb Also with details

Richard, aka[/quote]

Iíve been on that site also Toth, but to me it doesnít give conclusive answers whether Pa-Aten-em-heb and Horemheb are one and the same.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I`ve thought that maybe we are running in the wrong direction if we keep looking for Horemheb as Pa-Aten-em-heb. Isn`t it possible that Horemheb after becoming king erased all evidence (as completely as he could) of his connections to one or more of the Amarna kings? His name might have been Horemheb all his life, there was no real need to change it even during the Amarna period as Horus was an acceptable deity. And he surely wouldn`t have liked it if someone later pointed at him (or chatted behind his back) saying that our king was Akhenaten`s scribe, fanbearer,general or whatever.
Note that Horemheb deliberately doesn`t name the king he served in his Coronation text either. He just mentions the king whom he owed his exalted king-like position in order to justify his accession to the throne.

I`m not sure if you,Toth,want to include this as a question in your email.
As it is pure speculation there is probably no clear answer to it.
I leave it to you.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In van Dijk's online articles /book excerpts I think he does point out that Horemheb's tomb may have started as soon as year 1 of Tutankhamen. At that point I don't think names had been wholesale changed away from Aten related names. The butler Paatenemheb from Saqqara (tomb chapel in Leiden in case you want to look at it) never changed his name.

So that would argue a little bit against Horemheb being named Paatenemheb. For why the immediate change? Unless of course the names inscribed all date to after the 2nd or 3rd year when Tutankhamen also changed his name?

Van Dijk suggests that Horemheb's first wife Amenia may have been buried in Horemheb's Saqqara tomb as early as year 1 or 2 of Tutankhamen. At that point the tomb was quite a bit smaller so any evidence of another name would have to be in the oldest parts of the tomb.

I think that Horemheb should have been someone of some importance at the end of Akhenaten's reign already. Which is a point in favor of him being Paatenemheb. He rises to the top very quickly during the time of Tutankhamen and apparently was named Deputy for the king. I would expect him to have had some kind of career that would have set him up for that? Unless this promotion was some kind of nepotism? Maybe he was related to the lady Maia, the nurse of Tut? (That's speculation on my part Smile )
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
In van Dijk's online articles /book excerpts I think he does point out that Horemheb's tomb may have started as soon as year 1 of Tutankhamen. At that point I don't think names had been wholesale changed away from Aten related names. The butler Paatenemheb from Saqqara (tomb chapel in Leiden in case you want to look at it) never changed his name.

So that would argue a little bit against Horemheb being named Paatenemheb. For why the immediate change? Unless of course the names inscribed all date to after the 2nd or 3rd year when Tutankhamen also changed his name?

Van Dijk suggests that Horemheb's first wife Amenia may have been buried in Horemheb's Saqqara tomb as early as year 1 or 2 of Tutankhamen. At that point the tomb was quite a bit smaller so any evidence of another name would have to be in the oldest parts of the tomb.

I think that Horemheb should have been someone of some importance at the end of Akhenaten's reign already. Which is a point in favor of him being Paatenemheb. He rises to the top very quickly during the time of Tutankhamen and apparently was named Deputy for the king. I would expect him to have had some kind of career that would have set him up for that? Unless this promotion was some kind of nepotism? Maybe he was related to the lady Maia, the nurse of Tut? (That's speculation on my part Smile )


Yet I think this "speculation" is interesting enough to send to Dr. van Dijk as a question.BTW: I will send the email tonight 6:00 PM Local time as a polite request, so it may we will get a simple "No" from him, or an answer to the questions ( Of course I hope for the latter Smile )

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:


Iíve been on that site also Toth, but to me it doesnít give conclusive answers whether Pa-Aten-em-heb and Horemheb are one and the same.


The site titled " Horemheb" simply states in the entry to Horemheb that he was Pa-Aten-emheb without giving any proof which of course cannot be given because it does not (yet) exist. I really wonder how can anyone state presumptions as matter-of fact without saying that they are not proven.
A little above in the entry concerning Tut it is said that he was Semenkhkare`s son, again assumption presented as fact. Although I tend to believe that KV55 is Smenka I would never say he definitely is.

No name change has been proven, and I don`t think that all of the known Pa-atenemhebs were converted Horemhebs or other -emhebs. They may well have been born in a time when the Aten had become fashionable which started already in the late reign of AIII. Even if "our" Horemheb was a born Pa-Atenemheb why would he later change his name into Horemheb and not Amunemheb or something similar, stressing his devotion to Amun like the king and queen did?
Alternatively one could think that he was born as Horemheb before the Amarna period then became Pa-Atenemheb and later wanted his own birth name back without caring too much about Amun. But this is still mere assumption.


Question to Toth: Have you sent your question-packed email already ?
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