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Quick help with the Amarna period.
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J-Mak
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:49 am    Post subject: Quick help with the Amarna period. Reply with quote

I debated whether to put this under homework help or Evidence from Amarna.
If a mod feels that this should be moved, please feel free to move it.

I am doing a speech/presentation in two weeks on the life of Tutankhamun, and I want to include so Pre-Tut knowledge, so just wondering can anyone help me out so I don't look foolish.

1. How did Akhenaten die? was it peaceful?

2. Who took over next? Wikipedia tells me it was either Smenkhkare or Neferneferuaten, is it not known? How long did they rule for?

3. Who restored religion and abolished the Amarna art in Egypt?

4. I read somewhere that it was proven that Tutankhamun was the biological son of Akhenaten, is this true?

5. Is it still not proven how Tutankhamun died?

If anyone can answer one or more of these questions, that would be great!
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I may not have the best answers, but I do have some, and they are guaranteed to differ from other answers you may get.
J-Mak wrote:
1. How did Akhenaten die? was it peaceful?

I find no references, but that may just be my ignorance. For what it’s worth, the “Akhenaten-is-Moses” school believes he died peacefully on Mt Nebo by the Jordanian town of Madaba, contemplating the promised Land beyond the Jordan river, where he intended to settle his Atenist group, but from which the followers of “Tut-is-Joshua” had barred him.
Objectively, if no account of death is registered, and no mummy found, no certificate could be extended and he would legally still be counted as living.
J-Mak wrote:
2. Who took over next? Wikipedia tells me it was either Smenkhkare or Neferneferuaten, is it not known? How long did they rule for?

If Smenkhkare exerted a co-regency and died young, he could not have succeeded Akhnenaten, but his wife Meritaten could have, more so if she had been later married by her father. If she was hacked to death, as KV35YL shows, this proves she was then active at a deeply disturbed moment of Egyptian History.
There may be more than one Nefeneferuaten, so you may feel free to then choose any of the Queens of the time and call her by that new name, as long as you do it addressing her with the proper Kingly respect. Theories abound and evidence is scant.
Whatever happened then, there was agreement that Smenkhkare’s young son Tutankhaten was the only remaining legitimate heir on whom to base a dynastic continuity, provided he married a princess with the royal mtDNA. This was his older aunt Ankhesenpaaten.
J-Mak wrote:
3. Who restored religion and abolished the Amarna art in Egypt?

The power group that restored order probably was centred on Ay or approved by him. If Akhenaten still lived, they had to base the king’s godhood on some deity other than the Aten, so a pact was reached with the Amen priesthood and Tut’s inaugural ceremonies were a full return to the old religion. The names of the new King and Queen were duly changed to reflect Amen worship. Art was not reformed as such, since the newly established forms of expression could not really be proscribed, but the return to old depictions was established as proper and fit.
J-Mak wrote:
4. I read somewhere that it was proven that Tutankhamun was the biological son of Akhenaten, is this true?

Not true, such a hypothesis cannot be reconciled with the measured DNA alleles. Tut seems to have been simultaneously the half nephew of Akhenaten (through his father Smenkhkare), his son in law (through his wife Ankhesenamen) and his grandson (through his mother Meritaten).
J-Mak wrote:
5. Is it still not proven how Tutankhamun died?

No, the recorded wounds may not have been fatal, but his generally unhealthy inbred body may have been weakened by more than one form of malaria and probably lacked the necessary resistance to infection.

Now, be sure to pay full attention to other answers contradicting mine !
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J-Mak
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great answer, thankyou so much!
I was worried I would say something incorrect, but this is great thanks! Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick help with the Amarna period. Reply with quote

[quote="J-Mak"]I debated whether to put this under homework help or Evidence from Amarna.
If a mod feels that this should be moved, please feel free to move it.

J-Mak wrote:

1. How did Akhenaten die? was it peaceful?

It's not known how he died. Even if KV55 is Akhenaten, there is no cause of death for that mummy for as far as I know.

J-Mak wrote:
2. Who took over next? Wikipedia tells me it was either Smenkhkare or Neferneferuaten, is it not known? How long did they rule for?

I think the most common interpretation may be that Smenkhare followed Akhenaten on the throne and that Neferneferuaten may have been a regent (possibly Meritaten??). But the most honest way to assess the situation is probably to say we really don't know.

J-Mak wrote:
3. Who restored religion and abolished the Amarna art in Egypt?

That was done under Tutankhamen and is evidenced by the restoration stela. This seems to have happened in about year 2 of his reign when he was about 11 years old, so it was likely his advisors who restored religion. Who exactly was in charge is not really known. It could have been Aye or Horemheb.

J-Mak wrote:
4. I read somewhere that it was proven that Tutankhamun was the biological son of Akhenaten, is this true?

That's what Hawass et al claim. All we really know is that Tutankhamen is the son of KV55 and KV35YL. And the identities of both those individuals is contested. KV55 could be Smenkhare if you take his age at death to be ca 16-25, and it could be Akhenaten if the age of the body is over ca 35 years of age. The most detailed forensic examinations seem to point to a younger age.
KV35YL has a DNA profile that suggests she's a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye. Given enough inbreeding it's possible she's a grand daughter instead (but that last part does assume a heavy degree of intermarriage in the family)

J-Mak wrote:
5. Is it still not proven how Tutankhamun died?

It seems that the most common interpretation is still a wound from a accident. After the DNA tests it has been suggested that having malaria may have weakened his constitution. I'm not sure if that would be enough to kill him. (IMHO it may be a combination of factors: accident, weakening by malaria, infections, etc)

Very Happy It's amazing how little we actual know for certain.
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick help with the Amarna period. Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
J-Mak wrote:
3. Who restored religion and abolished the Amarna art in Egypt?

That was done under Tutankhamen and is evidenced by the restoration stela. This seems to have happened in about year 2 of his reign when he was about 11 years old, so it was likely his advisors who restored religion. Who exactly was in charge is not really known. It could have been Aye or Horemheb.


To be technically correct, the Ramessides abolished Amarna art, and Horemheb closed the Atenist temples during his own reign, thereby ending the Atenist cult. This is made clear in one of Horemheb's decrees, as I recall. It's clear also that the Ramessides considered themselves the successors of Horemheb, whom they regarded as an ancestor of sorts, in terms of his political, religious and cultural outlook.

Tutankhamun mainly changed certain Atenist materials of the royal family back to the traditional religious styles and re-established the temples of Amun and his triad (Mut and Khonsu), as noted in the Restoration Stela. However, the Atenist cult temples remained open and operating through his and Ay's reign. Some rapprochement with the traditional cults by Amarna rulers had begun as early as the reigns of "King Neferneferuaten" and Smenkhkare, however.

Amarna art style remained in use throughout the reigns of Tutankhamun, Ay and Horemheb, and the restrained Late Amarna style (a term coined for phases of Amarna art by Aldred (1973)) was used in Horemheb's tomb (Robins 1983).

With the advent of the Ramessides, the more traditional Egyptian art style was reinstated, using the older grid system of 18 squares (as opposed to the Amarna 20- or 22-grid system) (Robins 1994), but often retained certain features of Amarna art, such as neck folds and the elaboration of eyes and hairstyles.

Reference:

Aldred, C. 1973. Akhenaten and Nefertiti. New York: Brooklyn Museum/Viking Press.

Desroches-Noblecourt, C. 1997. L'art au service de Ramses ou: l'ingrat continuateur d'Akhenaton. In Unk., Ed., L'impero ramesside. Convegno internazionale in onore di Sergio Donadoni: 71-75. Quaderno. Vicino Oriente 1. Rome: Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza".

Griffis-Greenberg, K. 2001. A Mysterious Triad at the Egyptian Museum. The Ostracon: Journal of the Egyptian Study Society 12/1: 7, 19.

Robins, G. 1983. Anomalous Proportions in the tomb of Haremheb (KV 57). Göttinger Miszellen 65: 91-96.

________. 1994. Proportion and Style in Ancient Egyptian Art. Austin: University of Texas Press.

Schaden, O. J. 2000. Paintings in the Tomb of King Ay. In D. C. Forbes, Ed., Amarna Letters: Essays on Ancient Egypt 1390-1310 B.C., 4: 88-111. Sebastapol: KMT Communications, Inc.

HTH.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the extra details,
These are great.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick help with the Amarna period. Reply with quote

J-Mak wrote:
I am doing a speech/presentation in two weeks on the life of Tutankhamun, and I want to include so Pre-Tut knowledge, so just wondering can anyone help me out so I don't look foolish.

1. How did Akhenaten die? was it peaceful?


No one knows.

Quote:
2. Who took over next? Wikipedia tells me it was either Smenkhkare or Neferneferuaten, is it not known? How long did they rule for?


IMO Smenkhkara succeeded Akhenaten, based on tomb reliefs that juxtapose the 'old' royal family of Akhi, Nefer and daughters with the 'new' royal couple Smenkhkara and Meritaten, this is however only an opinion. There is no good reason to believe either Smenkhkara or Neferneferuaten were co-regent with Akhenaten so presumably both enjoyed an independent reign. As I recall Smenkhkara is known to have ruled at least one year while Neferneferuaten is credited with up to three. IMO the most likely scenario is Meritaten assuming the crown after her husband's death but eventually being displaced by Tutankhamun's backers.

Quote:
3. Who restored religion and abolished the Amarna art in Egypt?


Reconciliation with the Old religion seems to have begun under Smenkhkara, possibly Neferneferuaten was a reaction against it - given her name - the reconciliation continued under Tut and Aye but it wasn't until Horemheb that Aten was proscribed and the reaction really got underway.

Quote:
4. I read somewhere that it was proven that Tutankhamun was the biological son of Akhenaten, is this true?


It is as good as certain that KV55 is the father of Tutankhamun - and KV35YL his mother. The identity of KV55 however is quite uncertain. Going by the mummy's age at death (under twenty-five) he is most probably Smenkhkara NOT Akhenaten who ruled 17 years and was a father at his accesion meaning he had to have been at least thirty and probably older at death.

Quote:
5. Is it still not proven how Tutankhamun died?


The latest thinking is he died of gangrene due to a leg injury. Murder is no longer considered probable.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick help with the Amarna period. Reply with quote

J-Mak wrote:


1. How did Akhenaten die? was it peaceful?

Nobody knows yet. Akhenaten might be the body that was found in tomb KV55. If so, he was quite young (under 30 at death) and as the remains are just bones, and some of those are missing, a likely cause of death has not yet been established. However, many Egyptologists believe that the KV55 body can not be Akhenaten because the age seems to be too young.

2. Who took over next? Wikipedia tells me it was either Smenkhkare or Neferneferuaten, is it not known? How long did they rule for?

It is certain that at least one ruler using the name Neferneferuaten ruled for 3 years before Tutankhamun. Evidence for Smenkhkare exists but the highest agreed date for that ruler is year 1. At the present time it isn't known what the order of kings was, or if they ruled with Akhenaten for part of that time. What is certain is that Smenkhkare and Neferneferuaten used epithets that allied them to Akhenaten, and they continued the worship of the Aten.

3. Who restored religion and abolished the Amarna art in Egypt?

The traditional religions of Egypt were re-established during the reign of Tutankhamun, which is why so many images of the gods exist apparently with his features. Some of those statues were later re-carved with the names of Ay or Horemheb, but the youthful features are usually regarded as Tutankhamun's.

Amarna art was never abolished - the style developed over time. The most extreme Amarna art ceased about half way through Akhenaten's reign when the artist Tuthmose with his more naturalistic style became popular (bust of Nefertiti, probably some of Tutankhamun's pieces, for example the head bursting out of the lotus flower).

In terms of wall art, after Amarna the style is more fluid than before - especially noted in the hands and feet of subjects, and in the way clothes are portrayed.

4. I read somewhere that it was proven that Tutankhamun was the biological son of Akhenaten, is this true?

Tutankhamun is the son of whoever the mummy in tomb KV55 is, which may or may not be Akhenaten!

5. Is it still not proven how Tutankhamun died?

It is likely that he died of complications from a serious leg injury. It is not known how this happened, but it appears that after the injury he developed an infection in the leg and this will probably have lead to a suppressed immune system and/or blood poisoning. Malaria was also found in his system so this could have finished him off (with him already being unwell).

If anyone can answer one or more of these questions, that would be great!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, thanks for all the replies, my presentation is working out great.

I am just wondering, did Tutankhamun do anything else of importance besides:
* restoring religion to Egypt.
* Tomb discovery created a strong interest in Egyptology.

Oddly enough, I am studying the archaeological side to tutankhamun, and his discovery by Howard Carter, yet im expected to talk about his life, but I cannot find anything he did.

Also does anybody have any good written sources for the rule of Tutankhamun?
I have his restoration stela, is there anything else?

Thanks once again!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a recent edition of KMT journal which discusses his temple(s) in Karnak. Tutankhamen did have a building project going on.

He worked on the hypostyle hall that was started by Amenhotep III. And there was a separate temple which included the scenes of war with the north and the south. There are some questions if these scenes are based on real events (due to some interesting details in the scenes) or if they are standard (many pharaohs included battles against the North and the South).

Horemheb's tomb is interesting. It dates to the reign of Tutankhamen and there are scenes of a military campaign that may have taken place during the reign of Tut. There is a presentation of the prisoners to the King and Queen who are thought to be Tut and Ankhesenamen.

And all we really know of Tut as a small kid is that relief from Amarna where Tutankh(u)aten is depicted as a King's son. And that he had a nurse called Maia who was later buried in Saqqara. Maia is shown with the boy king on her lap in her tomb.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello! I'm a long time lurker, first-ish poster. I chose my screenname before I noticed that there was already an Osiris II so apologies there. I'm new to Egyptian history and wanted to familiarize myself with some of the basics before I began posting. I've recently read Aidan Dodson's "Amarna Sunset," Nicholas Reeves' "Akhenaten: Egypt's False Prophet," and Erik Hornung's "Akhenaten and the Religion of Light" and had a few questions about issues that are only briefly touched upon by those books.

1. Why did Amenhotep III anoint himself a living god in the first place? Did Akhenaten really believe that his father had created the world? Has there ever been another case in Egyptian history in which a pharaoh was declared a living god? Did Egyptians believe he was a god in the same way Christians believe Jesus was a god? If so, did the Aten enter into his body at the time of his first sed-heb festival or was he born a god as a result of his mother having been impregnated by Amun-Re, according to the official story? Could this have been done in order to in someway combat the power of the Amun priesthood? Or/and should schizophrenia and narcissism be hypothesized?

2. Akhenaten and Nefertiti worshiped the Aten, while the people worshipped the royal family. At Akhet-Aten, the sun rose from Akhenaten's tomb to shine over his city. Do we know if Akhenaten was meant to be play the role of divine intermediary for all of eternity or was every generation of King and Queen in turn supposed to take on the roles of Shu and Tefnut?

3. I recall reading that the recent Amarna documentary on the Hawass/JAMA paper said that one of the fetuses discovered with Tutankhamun had been diagnosed with Marfan's syndrome. Has there been any confirmation on this or did the documentary simply make this up?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Osiris,
Here are my thoughts.

Quote:
. Why did Amenhotep III anoint himself a living god in the first place?

AIII was ill and had some type of religious experience during which he healed himself and concluded that he had become the living Aten. (Cyprus Aldred).
Quote:
Did Egyptians believe he was a god in the same way Christians believe Jesus was a god?

No one knows how widely Atenism was accepted by the masses or what they really believed. They went right back to the old Gods without argument, but who knows if the masses had any say in anything. The nobility went with the Pharoah, if they wanted their job, estates etc. Christians believed Jesus was the son of God, which would be more the Ahkenaten role. Ahkenaten was the only path to his father, the living Aten, as Jesus is the only path to God, his father.
Quote:
If so, did the Aten enter into his body at the time of his first sed-heb festival or was he born a god as a result of his mother having been impregnated by Amun-Re, according to the official story?

All Pharoahs are automatically God. When they die they fly back to their father Re. The conversion to "the living Aten" stepped it up a notch. The Aten entering into his body is more of a christian concept of the events. He and Tiye were already being worshipped in Nubia at Soleb.
Quote:
Could this have been done in order to in someway combat the power of the Amun priesthood?

You could say this was a huge motive. In a cause-effect type of assessment the priests of Amun must have lost the most.
Quote:
Or/and should schizophrenia and narcissism be hypothesized?

Possible. Anyone who becomes a living God is automatically classed as off the wall, I would imagine. By this I mean that many people have claimed to be God but no one has been able to prove it. The religious experience seems to have been legitimate, however.
Quote:
2. Akhenaten and Nefertiti worshiped the Aten, while the people worshipped the royal family. At Akhet-Aten, the sun rose from Akhenaten's tomb to shine over his city. Do we know if Akhenaten was meant to be play the role of divine intermediary for all of eternity or was every generation of King and Queen in turn supposed to take on the roles of Shu and Tefnut?

He thought he was going to live for a million years (boundary stela) so all eternity was a possibility in the thinking.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephaniep wrote:
Hi Osiris,
Here are my thoughts.

Quote:
Did Egyptians believe he was a god in the same way Christians believe Jesus was a god?

No one knows how widely Atenism was accepted by the masses or what they really believed. They went right back to the old Gods without argument, but who knows if the masses had any say in anything. The nobility went with the Pharoah, if they wanted their job, estates etc. Christians believed Jesus was the son of God, which would be more the Ahkenaten role. Ahkenaten was the only path to his father, the living Aten, as Jesus is the only path to God, his father.

Quote:
If so, did the Aten enter into his body at the time of his first sed-heb festival or was he born a god as a result of his mother having been impregnated by Amun-Re, according to the official story?

All Pharoahs are automatically God. When they die they fly back to their father Re. The conversion to "the living Aten" stepped it up a notch. The Aten entering into his body is more of a christian concept of the events. He and Tiye were already being worshipped in Nubia at Soleb.


Not to start any kind of controversy, but I want to clarify some comments about Christianity - which normally I wouldn't touch in this forum, but as Christianity is being used as a comparison, it's useful to have accurate information.

Christians believe that not only is Jesus the only path to God the Father (accurate statement), but that Jesus himself is fully God, of the same being and “essence” as God the Father. God did not enter Jesus’ body at any time, since Jesus was God before his incarnation on earth. He was always God, and still is. This is what Christians call the doctrine of the Trinity. I left out discussion about the Holy Spirit as that part isn’t pertinent to our present discussion.

I would see Akenaten’s ideas as more analogous to a Jim Jones type of personality rather than that of Jesus, except of course, Jim Jones’s dad probably didn’t claim divinity.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephaniep wrote:
AIII was ill and had some type of religious experience during which he healed himself and concluded that he had become the living Aten. (Cyprus Aldred).

I wasn't expecting to hear that! Aldred's book has been on the top of my to-read list but I haven't gotten to it yet. It does happen that many people find religion after spontaneous remissions. Usually it's believed to be God who healed them but if you're a narcissist (an occupational hazard for pharaohs, I'm sure), it's certainly possible, especially within a religious context that already saw pharaohs as gods-in-waiting. Does Aldred actually have a source for that? I've never come across that story.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burlgirl wrote:
Quote:
Christians believe that not only is Jesus the only path to God the Father (accurate statement), but that Jesus himself is fully God, of the same being and “essence” as God the Father. God did not enter Jesus’ body at any time, since Jesus was God before his incarnation on earth. He was always God, and still is. This is what Christians call the doctrine of the Trinity. I left out discussion about the Holy Spirit as that part isn’t pertinent to our present discussion.



I'm not one to feed into a religious discussion but I think it's important to note that the concept of Jesus as God or the Trinity is more of a Roman Catholic Dogma. Most Christian denominations do not agree with the concept.

Regarding the Jim Jones comparison, I might have to agree as long as you include the likes of David Koresh, etc.
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