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Thuya's parents
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephaniep wrote:
What I find interesting is that the female body type changed during the reign of Thutmose IV in a revolutionary way that was not seen before this and was depicted in the tomb art of Thutmose IV, Amenhotep III, Ahkenaten, Tutankhamun and Aye. Horemheb has a slimmer silhouette and then the pear shaped body type disappears from the artistic vocabulary. And it happened before the Amarna art style.

Food for thought.


Then may I suggest you look at this article:

Eaton-Krauss, M. 1981. Miscellanea Amarnensia. Chronique d'Egypte56/112: 245-64.

There is a involved discussion on the change of female depictions in the NK as part of artistic innovations, and culminating in the "Amarna belly."

There is a further discussion of the change in body proportions and styling during this period in

Robins, G. 1994. Proportion and Style in Ancient Egyptian Art. Austin: University of Texas Press.

----------. 1994. Some Principles of Compositional Dominance and Gender Hierarchy in Egyptian Art. JARCE 31: 33-40.
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stephaniep
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks neseret,
I see I can pick up The gay Robbins book on Amazon for 16 bucks and will order it.
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Montu
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I heard something sugesting that her family was linked with the priesthood of Heliopolis
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montu wrote:
I thought I heard something sugesting that her family was linked with the priesthood of Heliopolis


Thuya's son Anen was a high priest of Re. But he was HP in Karnak, not Heliopolis.

Redford has expressed some doubt about the nature of the high priesthood. The actual title was "Greatest of Seers in the House of the Prince". The title is unique to Anen. Google Books

I think his more important title was Second Prophet of Amun.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And also "Sem Priest in Heliopolis of the South" (Iunu Shema)
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iunu = city of many pillars )Heliopolis)
Shema = A heraldic plant found in Upper Egypt

Interestingly, the phrase iunu shemu was also part of one of Tutankhamen's names.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Interestingly, the phrase iunu shemu was also part of one of Tutankhamen's names.


I wonder if he wasn't born there, which may endorse the theory of Meritaten and Smenkhkare being his parents,
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not think the epithet "heka iunu shema" has anything to do with Tut`s birthplace.
"Iunu shema" is just another name for Thebes or Waset if you prefer that, meaning "On (Heliopolis) of the South".

To me this epithet clearly refers to and stresses the regained importance of Thebes after the Amarna interlude and lines out the new king`s agenda of supporting Karnak and probably of residing there more or less often.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And why he didn't simply adopted the Heqa Waset of his granddad?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Heqa Waset" was part of Amenhotep's name.
In the latest DNA examination the father of Tutahnkhamen is shown to be Akhenaton.
We know that Akhenaton was the son of Amenhotep III.
Therefore, Amenhotep III heqa Waset was his grandfather.

BTW, I disagree with these results. Tutankhamen himself referred to Amenhotep III as "my father".
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Robson
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My question has another meaning: if Iunu Shema was Waset, and Amenhotep III was Heqa Waset, why Tutamnkhamun used the other epithet? What actually changed from one to another? Or Iunu Shema wasn't Waset at all?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
My question has another meaning: if Iunu Shema was Waset, and Amenhotep III was Heqa Waset, why Tutamnkhamun used the other epithet? ...

Because the priests putting together the five big names chose this formulation.

The epithets Hequa Iunu, Hequa Waset & Hequa Iunu Schema appear in the names of the kings from the New Kingdom very often (18. - 20.Dynasty). The earliest document I could find on the fast is from Amenhotep II. He is Hequa Iunu.

I do not think it is a reference to the birthplace. It is rather for the appreciation of the importance of the city Waset, the origin of the new Dynasty and here god Amun(-Ra), by identifying with the ancient city of the sun god.

Hequa Iunu Schema is clearly a euphemism for Waset. The evidences are clear and innumerable.

Greetings, Lutz.



Beckerath, Jürgen von : Handbuch der ägyptischen Königsnamen. - München : Deutscher Kunstverlag, 1984.

Dautzenberg, Norbert : Die Wahl der königlichen Namen im Verlauf der ägyptischen Geschichte - Ein Beitrag zur Rolle des ägyptischen Herrschers als geschichtliche Person und zu diversen Einzelproblemen der pharaonischen Chronologie. - Selbstverlag, 2000.
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BobManske
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:

BTW, I disagree with these results. Tutankhamen himself referred to Amenhotep III as "my father".


There is no room for this particular doubt, given this premise.

Egyptian had no word for grandfather. Direct familial relationships were restricted to words for father, mother, son, daughter, brother, sister.

That's it. No words for grandfather, etc. Any male forebear could be referred to as "father". "Father of my father" was not a common circumlocution. Terms of endearment referred to the individual as if they were a member of this nuclear family, e.g. referring to a loved woman as my "sister", without meaning any blood relationship.

Going just a little further down this path:
Nor were there any words for husband, wife, in-laws, cousins, whatever. Not even queen. Everytime you see the word "wife" or "queen" in a translation, rest assured that the original word was, probably without exception, "woman".

As for Lutz' statements and conclusions: they are, as is the usual case with him, right on target. One question for Lutz and/or Neseret, however, is in reference to the royal titulary: Often, possibly always, the titulary seems to me to reflect not only standard royal imagery like "strong bull", etc., but is also perhaps a political (understanding politics/religion as being inseparable) statement and possibly used occasionally to indicate intended policies. So I wonder if the priests would be solely responsible for the entire titulary, or at least the four additional names assumed at coronation. Particularly in view of the fact that any of these names could, and sometimes were, altered during the reign. It seems to me that the king would be intimately involved in this. Are you aware of any studies whose thesis is the royal titulary, its meanings and formulation, and which might support or refute this idea ?

Bob
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
And why he didn't simply adopted the Heqa Waset of his granddad?

Maybe because Hequa Waset with addition Nefer was also part of the name of Amenhotep IV., before he changed around year 5 / 6 to Akhenaten?

Lutz
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobManske wrote:
... Often, possibly always, the titulary seems to me to reflect not only standard royal imagery like "strong bull", etc., but is also perhaps a political (understanding politics/religion as being inseparable) statement and possibly used occasionally to indicate intended policies. ...

I think the majority of Egyptologists see especially in the nesu bit or throne name a political program of the new government. There are of course no proof but I also assume that the new king had influence on his names (Tutankhamun with his 9 years was a special case). Officially, however, he was bestowed by the gods and announced at coronation.

BobManske wrote:
... Particularly in view of the fact that any of these names could, and sometimes were, altered during the reign. ...

Incidentally, interestingly Akhenaten has not changed his throne name during his 17 years of reign ...

BobManske wrote:
... Are you aware of any studies whose thesis is the royal titulary, its meanings and formulation, and which might support or refute this idea ?

There are, however, probably primarily in German. In addition to the above-mentioned works by von Beckerath and Dautzenberg I know / have Gundlach, Rolf : Der Pharaoh und sein Staat - Die Grundlegung der ägyptischen Königsideologie im 4. und 3. Jahrtausend. - Darmstadt : Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 1998.

Also of interest for your question

Dautzenberg, Norbert : Einige Bemerkungen zu einigen Thronnamen des Neuen Reiches und ihren politischen Aussagen sowie zur Person des Sethnacht. - Göttingen : Universität / Ägyptologisches Seminar, 1997. - Göttinger Miszellen - GM - Beiträge zur ägyptologischen Diskussion - 156. - pp. 37-46

and

Die Wahl des Königsnamens in der Hyksoszeit. - Göttingen : Universität / Ägyptologisches Seminar, 1997. - Göttinger Miszellen - GM - Beiträge zur ägyptologischen Diskussion - 159. - pp. 43-51.

Graefe, Erhart : Zur Struktur der Thronnamen der ägyptischen Könige und der Lesung des Thronnamens der Königin Hatschepsut. - In: Divitiae Aegypti - Koptologische und verwandte Studien zu Ehren von Martin Krause. - Wiesbaden : Reichert, 1995. - pp. 119-127.

Barta, Winfried : Zur Konstruktion der ägyptischen Königsnamen (I - VI). - In: Zeitschrift für ägyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde - ZÄS - 114, 115, 116 (1987 - 1989).

Baines, John : Reflections on some Ancient Egyptian Royal Names. - In: Pyramid studies and other essays - Presented to I. E. S. Edwards. - London : Egypt Exploration Society, 1988. - pp. 78-88.

Greetings, Lutz.
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