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In need of a specific book/paper.

 
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J-Mak
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: In need of a specific book/paper. Reply with quote

Hey, I am in need of a historical report that I vaguely remember, It may have been a published book or just a research paper.

Anyway, It was a theory about how the biblical Moses was an exiled Egyptian living under Akhenaten's rule (During the monotheism) and then going off and settling a nation under one god.
I remember two of his arguments included a papyrus that told of a conflict with a man named 'mosis' who was forced to leave Egypt and also the fact that Moses is extremely similar to mosis, such as the known egyptian names 'Tuthmosis'.

Does anybody know what I'm talking about?
Or does anybody have any other reports/books on a similar theme?

Also, if anybody knows, How academically-accepted is such a theory? As interesting as it is, the evidence I can remember (above) is quite unreliable and unsupported.
Would It be sensible to use such a theory in a report? Or would It only damage my work?

Thanks.
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might wanna try reading...

"Moses and Monotheism", by Sigmund Freud

"Moses the Egyptian", by Jan Assmann

Jan Assmann also has a newer publication which might relate (balance some of the above) for you- "Of God and Gods"
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J-Mak
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
You might wanna try reading...

"Moses and Monotheism", by Sigmund Freud

"Moses the Egyptian", by Jan Assmann

Jan Assmann also has a newer publication which might relate (balance some of the above) for you- "Of God and Gods"


Yes, those are great.

Have you read those? Just wondering, How 'sound' are the theories? I plan on doing a paper including such an idea to link the ancient religions together, then bridge them to our modern religions. I didn't really think that the evidence was solid, however it appears that this idea has been published multiple times.

Thanks for this!
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-Mak wrote:
Have you read those? Just wondering, How 'sound' are the theories? I plan on doing a paper including such an idea to link the ancient religions together, then bridge them to our modern religions. I didn't really think that the evidence was solid, however it appears that this idea has been published multiple times.


Yes, I have read them. How sound are the theories? - hmmm... let me just borrow directly from Jan Assmann and say, Moses is a character of myth, Akhenaten is a character of history

Assmann has a whole bunch of stuff published, if you can read German (or translations) you will find many more available. I ain't no expert, but I like Assman coz he appears happy enough to change his mind, change his ideas, and change his 'theories', that is why I also referenced his later book

If you choose to read Freud's work, it might help to understand his underlying motivations for taking-on on the subject. Assmann may help in this understanding (I read him first)- a basic familiarity with psychology (and not just because of Freud) might be useful

I believe Assmann is highly respected in his work and the field
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J-Mak
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
J-Mak wrote:
Have you read those? Just wondering, How 'sound' are the theories? I plan on doing a paper including such an idea to link the ancient religions together, then bridge them to our modern religions. I didn't really think that the evidence was solid, however it appears that this idea has been published multiple times.


Yes, I have read them. How sound are the theories? - hmmm... let me just borrow directly from Jan Assmann and say, Moses is a character of myth, Akhenaten is a character of history

Assmann has a whole bunch of stuff published, if you can read German (or translations) you will find many more available. I ain't no expert, but I like Assman coz he appears happy enough to change his mind, change his ideas, and change his 'theories', that is why I also referenced his later book

If you choose to read Freud's work, it might help to understand his underlying motivations for taking-on on the subject. Assmann may help in this understanding (I read him first)- a basic familiarity with psychology (and not just because of Freud) might be useful

I believe Assmann is highly respected in his work and the field


Ah thanks. I am planning on writing a history paper for my senior history extension class. I originally planned to write it on Akhenaten, however after thinking about it and the fact that the Egyptians pretty much removed his the pharaoh from existence, i would hate to hand in a paper totally relying on secondary sources.

I then decided to do something that I could relate throughout all of ancient history, so I could include Roman historians as well as Greek poets and histories from various civilisations.

And at this very moment, I am thinking about doing something on Religion. I want to be as ambitious as possible, and thinking about such a theory as Moses the Egyptian, I thought it would be pretty ambitious to relate Christianity to the ancient Egyptians.

The fact that Freud wrote about such a topic is pretty supportive, as I know how respected Freud is in the academic world. However, after looking at the Wikipedia page for 'Moses and Monotheism', I see that:
"Most historians since the 1960s reject the legitimacy of Psychohistory including Freud's theories."

As interesting as the theory is, I don't think it will be enough to push my work along, and as you have stated, Assmann himself claims that Moses was a myth.

Thanks.
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my personal thoughts... but, interrelating history and religion can often be dangerous ground. There is always the risk of invoking prejudices in the reader the moment the subject of religion is raised

Good luck with your project...
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Granite
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear J-Mak,
Unless you wish to get an F minus for your paper, I suggest you look for a more tenable theory or a more promising area to write about.
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J-Mak
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granite wrote:
Dear J-Mak,
Unless you wish to get an F minus for your paper, I suggest you look for a more tenable theory or a more promising area to write about.


Yes, that would be true.. Probably being too ambitious wanting to do this.

I was planning on doing something on Akhenaten, however I decided not to since Egyptians were pretty poor at recording history (In comparison to other cultures such as Greek and Rome) and also the fact that Akhenaten would be totally dependant on secondary sources with no actual written evidence.

I will keep thinking about a topic..

Thanks.
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Granite
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We know a lot about the Amarna period - possibly more than any other moment in Ancient Egypt - but tantalizingly not quite enough to settle many of the key historical issues of Akhenaten's reign and, even more so, his successors. DO NOT BELIEVE MOST OF THE THINGS YOU READ ON THE SUBJECT (even by 'experts')!!!
However we do have the art of the period, the main religious ideas (e.g. the Hymn to the Aten), the Amarna Letters , and the archaeology of the city, the boundary stellae and the tombs. That should supply plenty of topics for a paper based on hard fact and not on armchair speculation.
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Toth
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granite wrote:
We know a lot about the Amarna period - possibly more than any other moment in Ancient Egypt - but tantalizingly not quite enough to settle many of the key historical issues of Akhenaten's reign and, even more so, his successors. DO NOT BELIEVE MOST OF THE THINGS YOU READ ON THE SUBJECT (even by 'experts')!!!
However we do have the art of the period, the main religious ideas (e.g. the Hymn to the Aten), the Amarna Letters , and the archaeology of the city, the boundary stellae and the tombs. That should supply plenty of topics for a paper based on hard fact and not on armchair speculation.


Granite how about some proof, and some clarity? So far you only say not to believe most of the things we read about Amarna (even by 'experts')!!! and for me that includes you

Richard, aka
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was planning on doing something on Akhenaten, however I decided not to since Egyptians were pretty poor at recording history

And here is the best history lesson you will ever receive... (sorry to sound pompous, please think about this and take it as offered). It is those who are good at recording history who should be trusted least. Perhaps herein could be a suggestion for your project?!?
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