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Yet another DNA-article
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Yet another DNA-article Reply with quote

I have already thrown one or two articles about different interpretations of the DNA-test rsults into the discussion, and here is yet another very challenging one in Italian. Got it once more from Kate`s "News from the Valley of the Kings" blog, so everyone interested please go there to get the link or use
http://www.***/
provided it works.
Kate discerns very startling conclusions from this article such as KV35EL being Nefertiti and KV35YL being Shocked Akhenaten!
So there seems to be once more confusion about the gender of the Younger "Lady" as has been in the past.

My plea is to anyone in this forum who`s native language is Italian or who is very familiar with it to read the article and pass the relevant details on to us.
Thanx!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sothis, here you are:
[url]
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ugiat-antoniocrasto.it%2Fhassaleh%2FArticoli%2FConferme%2520dal%2520DNA%2520della%2520famiglia%2520di%2520Akhenaton.pdf[/url]

Only Google translate, but its a start... Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the link doesn't seem to work then remove the [./url] at the end of the link, including the two % characters (the period was added to prevent the forum from treating it as a command, so do't include that)

The correct link is:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ugiat-antoniocrasto.it%2Fhassaleh%2FArticoli%2FConferme%2520dal%2520DNA%2520della%2520famiglia%2520di%2520Akhenaton.pdf

or

http://tinyurl.com/32udejt (Tested) pharaohok

Richard, aka
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
If the link doesn't seem to work then remove the [./url] at the end of the link, including the two % characters (the period was added to prevent the forum from treating it as a command, so do't include that)

The correct link is:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ugiat-antoniocrasto.it%2Fhassaleh%2FArticoli%2FConferme%2520dal%2520DNA%2520della%2520famiglia%2520di%2520Akhenaton.pdf

or

http://tinyurl.com/32udejt (Tested) pharaohok

Richard, aka


Thanks Toth, i posted the response too fast there and didn't check it...

Embarassed
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neseret
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Yet another DNA-article Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
I have already thrown one or two articles about different interpretations of the DNA-test rsults into the discussion, and here is yet another very challenging one in Italian. Got it once more from Kate`s "News from the Valley of the Kings" blog, so everyone interested please go there to get the link or use
http://www.***/
provided it works.
Kate discerns very startling conclusions from this article such as KV35EL being Nefertiti and KV35YL being Shocked Akhenaten!
So there seems to be once more confusion about the gender of the Younger "Lady" as has been in the past.

My plea is to anyone in this forum who`s native language is Italian or who is very familiar with it to read the article and pass the relevant details on to us.
Thanx!


I'll have to read it when I have more time, but please note that not a single author to this article has any medical or genetic analysis experience or training. I would take that on board while reading, if I were you.

I also tend to think the JAMA letters in criticism of Hawass, Gad et al (2010) (which this article supports), have far more technical support than this article does.

My two cents.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the links, Styler78 and Toth!
I`ve just started to read a bit and it looks that it is really a brain-wrecker.
Can`t comment on any of the exotic conclusions yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Styler78 wrote:
Toth wrote:
If the link doesn't seem to work then remove the [./url] at the end of the link, including the two % characters (the period was added to prevent the forum from treating it as a command, so do't include that)

The correct link is:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ugiat-antoniocrasto.it%2Fhassaleh%2FArticoli%2FConferme%2520dal%2520DNA%2520della%2520famiglia%2520di%2520Akhenaton.pdf

or

http://tinyurl.com/32udejt (Tested) pharaohok

Richard, aka



Thanks Toth, i posted the response too fast there and didn't check it...

Embarassed

Well, Stuart, look at the link in the next post , it's starred out, and translates to just www, these kind of things happen, perhaps a tinyurl version of the link will appear. In my last PM I explained why this happened to your link, I hope you found it illuminating

Richard
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the conclusions are quite absurd. some of the conclusions are:

1) akhenaten had marfan's, which they conclude is hereditary, and they claim he got it from his mother.

2) tiye was sterile, and akhenaten's mother was tadukhepa, a mitannian princess, (claiming the disease ran in the royal house of mitanni) and tiye adopted tudekhepa's children as her own for appearance and reasons of state.

3) akhenaten was a woman, and is the younger lady.

4) mutemwia, yuya and shuttarna II of mitanni were siblings.

5) nefertiti is the elder lady, and was married to amenhotep III.

6) they agree that smenkhare if kv 55, but tut's mother wasnt the younger lady, because that's akhenaten.

7) smenkhare married meritaten, ankhsenamun and meketaten. meketaten is the mother of tut.

its not clear whether a lot is missing from translation, or theyr eally think some of these things, they seem to believe they have a strong ally in kate phizackerly, so i think her blog may answer some of these questions!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
the conclusions are quite absurd. some of the conclusions are:

1) akhenaten had marfan's, which they conclude is hereditary, and they claim he got it from his mother.

2) tiye was sterile, and akhenaten's mother was tadukhepa, a mitannian princess, (claiming the disease ran in the royal house of mitanni) and tiye adopted tudekhepa's children as her own for appearance and reasons of state.

3) akhenaten was a woman, and is the younger lady.

4) mutemwia, yuya and shuttarna II of mitanni were siblings.

5) nefertiti is the elder lady, and was married to amenhotep III.

6) they agree that smenkhare if kv 55, but tut's mother wasnt the younger lady, because that's akhenaten.

7) smenkhare married meritaten, ankhsenamun and meketaten. meketaten is the mother of tut.

its not clear whether a lot is missing from translation, or they really think some of these things, they seem to believe they have a strong ally in kate phizackerly, so i think her blog may answer some of these questions!


You're right Kylejustin, this is definitely exotic enough, almost bordering fringe, I would say . Now, if the mitanni princess carried the decease, shouldn't she be sterile too? And if so, isn't that speaking against her (the mitanni princess) being the mother of Akhenaten (in whatever form)?

BTW: Where did this mitanni princess come from, so all over sudden, thin air?

This more and more starts to sound like the old song:" Woe is me, shame and scandal in the family" Wink

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
the conclusions are quite absurd. some of the conclusions are:

1) akhenaten had marfan's, which they conclude is hereditary, and they claim he got it from his mother.

2) tiye was sterile, and akhenaten's mother was tadukhepa, a mitannian princess, (claiming the disease ran in the royal house of mitanni) and tiye adopted tudekhepa's children as her own for appearance and reasons of state.

3) akhenaten was a woman, and is the younger lady.

4) mutemwia, yuya and shuttarna II of mitanni were siblings.

5) nefertiti is the elder lady, and was married to amenhotep III.

6) they agree that smenkhare if kv 55, but tut's mother wasnt the younger lady, because that's akhenaten.

7) smenkhare married meritaten, ankhsenamun and meketaten. meketaten is the mother of tut.

its not clear whether a lot is missing from translation, or they really think some of these things, they seem to believe they have a strong ally in kate phizackerly, so i think her blog may answer some of these questions!


You're right Kylejustin, this is definitely exotic enough, almost bordering fringe, I would say . Now, if the mitanni princess carried the decease, shouldn't she be sterile too? And if so, isn't that speaking against her (the mitanni princess) being the mother of Akhenaten (in whatever form)?

BTW: Where did this mitanni princess come from, so all over sudden, thin air?

This more and more starts to sound like the old song:" Woe is me, shame and scandal in the family" Wink

Richard, aka


The two Mitanni princesses are long known as being Gilukhepa, Shuttarna`s daughter, who`s marriage to AmenhotepIII in his year 10 was commemorated by the issue of a "marriage scarab".
Much later (26 years I believe) she was followed by her niece Tadukhipa who apparently married AIII but might have been "taken over" by AIV.
So far, so good.
There has always been speculation that Tadukhipa might have become Nefertiti but this has never been proven.

The reference to Kate`s work in the article is IMO rather unfortunate. Where Kate only resolves the obvious problems of the "jumping alleles" (I hope you know what I mean) and KV55`s 15/15 marker which excludes him from being grandfather to both foetuses but otherwise keeps to the facts, they indulge in unlikely speculations such as sterility and gender change.
Would definitely make good stuff for a fiction story but I don`t like it.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Toth wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
the conclusions are quite absurd. some of the conclusions are:

1) akhenaten had marfan's, which they conclude is hereditary, and they claim he got it from his mother.

2) tiye was sterile, and akhenaten's mother was tadukhepa, a mitannian princess, (claiming the disease ran in the royal house of mitanni) and tiye adopted tudekhepa's children as her own for appearance and reasons of state.

3) akhenaten was a woman, and is the younger lady.

4) mutemwia, yuya and shuttarna II of mitanni were siblings.

5) nefertiti is the elder lady, and was married to amenhotep III.

6) they agree that smenkhare if kv 55, but tut's mother wasnt the younger lady, because that's akhenaten.

7) smenkhare married meritaten, ankhsenamun and meketaten. meketaten is the mother of tut.

its not clear whether a lot is missing from translation, or they really think some of these things, they seem to believe they have a strong ally in kate phizackerly, so i think her blog may answer some of these questions!


You're right Kylejustin, this is definitely exotic enough, almost bordering fringe, I would say . Now, if the mitanni princess carried the decease, shouldn't she be sterile too? And if so, isn't that speaking against her (the mitanni princess) being the mother of Akhenaten (in whatever form)?

BTW: Where did this mitanni princess come from, so all over sudden, thin air?

This more and more starts to sound like the old song:" Woe is me, shame and scandal in the family" Wink

Richard, aka


The two Mitanni princesses are long known as being Gilukhepa, Shuttarna`s daughter, who`s marriage to AmenhotepIII in his year 10 was commemorated by the issue of a "marriage scarab".
Much later (26 years I believe) she was followed by her niece Tadukhipa who apparently married AIII but might have been "taken over" by AIV.
So far, so good.
There has always been speculation that Tadukhipa might have become Nefertiti but this has never been proven.

The reference to Kate`s work in the article is IMO rather unfortunate. Where Kate only resolves the obvious problems of the "jumping alleles" (I hope you know what I mean) and KV55`s 15/15 marker which excludes him from being grandfather to both foetuses but otherwise keeps to the facts, they indulge in unlikely speculations such as sterility and gender change.
Would definitely make good stuff for a fiction story but I don`t like it.


Hello Sothis,

Thanks for the information on the Mitanni princesses, they were new for me (and if Google is right about the location of their empire, these young ladies came from far, especially by land)

DNA: I am not a genetic scientist, but do understand the importance of the alleles in DNA research, now - if any of the Mitanni princess gave birth to one, or more, child(ren), - wouldn't that introduce alleles "foreign" to the family-tree? The danger of those speculations are that they could be true, or completely false, and to be honest I don't see an Egyptian 'male' being turned into a 'female'; but if the depictions of Akhenaten are only slightly life like, we could agree that he had female features, but if we look around on the beach nowadays, at least a lot of men would qualify for that description
without being female. And sterility? Voluminous books have been written about the probable causes (on both sides), so I'd be careful to hang just one cause to a body dead and mummified for as long as the ones we're talking about here.

No, I wouldn't like that fiction book either... the facts are already difficult enough, so let's not stir in that pool.

Richard
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:




Hello Sothis,

Thanks for the information on the Mitanni princesses, they were new for me (and if Google is right about the location of their empire, these young ladies came from far, especially by land)

DNA: I am not a genetic scientist, but do understand the importance of the alleles in DNA research, now - if any of the Mitanni princess gave birth to one, or more, child(ren), - wouldn't that introduce alleles "foreign" to the family-tree? The danger of those speculations are that they could be true, or completely false, and to be honest I don't see an Egyptian 'male' being turned into a 'female'; but if the depictions of Akhenaten are only slightly life like, we could agree that he had female features, but if we look around on the beach nowadays, at least a lot of men would qualify for that description
without being female. And sterility? Voluminous books have been written about the probable causes (on both sides), so I'd be careful to hang just one cause to a body dead and mummified for as long as the ones we're talking about here.

No, I wouldn't like that fiction book either... the facts are already difficult enough, so let's not stir in that pool.

Richard


There certainly are a few alleles "foreign" to the family tree in terms that they only appear in Yuya or tuya and then again in the foetuses. These are mainly alleles 6,13 and 35 which are described as non-transmitted alleles but which according to Kate are so rare in the general population that they very likely were transmitted and not spontaneously created.
My guess is that if we had a comlete data set of the foetuses even more of those jumping alleles might have shown up.
But we cannot see of course if those alleles really are of foreign aka Mitanni origin or if they were introduced by Egyptian non-royals into the royal family.

Had Hawass done a more thorough job and included more royals up the 18 dynasty family tree in his studies such as Thutmose IV, III, Amenophis II we would probably have a clearer picture and could tell if the genes in question were introduced by AIII`s brides or not.
But then again, some earlier kings as Thutmose III and IV also had their share of Mitanni princesses Wink so there would be more possible sources.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Toth wrote:




Hello Sothis,

Thanks for the information on the Mitanni princesses, they were new for me (and if Google is right about the location of their empire, these young ladies came from far, especially by land)

DNA: I am not a genetic scientist, but do understand the importance of the alleles in DNA research, now - if any of the Mitanni princess gave birth to one, or more, child(ren), - wouldn't that introduce alleles "foreign" to the family-tree? The danger of those speculations are that they could be true, or completely false, and to be honest I don't see an Egyptian 'male' being turned into a 'female'; but if the depictions of Akhenaten are only slightly life like, we could agree that he had female features, but if we look around on the beach nowadays, at least a lot of men would qualify for that description
without being female. And sterility? Voluminous books have been written about the probable causes (on both sides), so I'd be careful to hang just one cause to a body dead and mummified for as long as the ones we're talking about here.

No, I wouldn't like that fiction book either... the facts are already difficult enough, so let's not stir in that pool.

Richard


There certainly are a few alleles "foreign" to the family tree in terms that they only appear in Yuya or tuya and then again in the foetuses. These are mainly alleles 6,13 and 35 which are described as non-transmitted alleles but which according to Kate are so rare in the general population that they very likely were transmitted and not spontaneously created.
My guess is that if we had a comlete data set of the foetuses even more of those jumping alleles might have shown up.
But we cannot see of course if those alleles really are of foreign aka Mitanni origin or if they were introduced by Egyptian non-royals into the royal family.

Had Hawass done a more thorough job and included more royals up the 18 dynasty family tree in his studies such as Thutmose IV, III, Amenophis II we would probably have a clearer picture and could tell if the genes in question were introduced by AIII`s brides or not.
But then again, some earlier kings as Thutmose III and IV also had their share of Mitanni princesses Wink so there would be more possible sources.


Hello again Sothis

Thank you for all the answers you provided so far, I hope I don't bother you too much with my questions, if so... then just say so and I'll stop, but this has been very informative for me, and I am trying to get some information together that makes this information more comprehendable

This starts to become a bit much for me as interested lay-man, but I'm trying, so this time a more imaginary question: For the sake of argument let's assume that alleles 25 and 31 neither are, nor were, present in my family-tree; now should I read from the above that these two - if possible - all over sudden could appear in my newborn offspring? A kind of mutation in the alleles?

To the second part of your comment, is the conclusion then that Hawass did a "sloppy job", or is the jury still out on that; or is it the well known problem of not sharing all the information he has?

Richard, aka
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuthmosis IV had a Mitanni bride, but her name is not known. From what I have read she actually cannot be identical to Mutemwia, because Mutemwia already had her son Amenhotep III in the early years of the reign of her husband.

The link between Mutemwia and Yuya is an old theory. That one is based on the idea of a family who would have regularly provided the royal family with brides. I think Cyril Aldred is the one who may have suggested this scenario.

Gilukhipa married Amenhotep III in year 10 of his reign. I assume she would have to be the mother of the children Tiye is supposed to have adopted? The eldest daughters were old enough to appear in the sed festivals of year 30 and 34. And Tadukhipa did not appear until ca year 36. So that's too late.

If Akhenaten is already having kids in the very early years of his reign he needs to be at least a teenager. So that means he was born in year 28 or so at the latest. Again, can't be a son of Tadukhipa.

If these royal children were really children of a Mitanni princess, wouldn't the king of Mitanni there have known this and used this? And if this woman was producing these royal brats to be raised by Tiye, then there were enough of them to suggest that this lady would have lived to see her children grow up (at least for a couple of years). Yet there is no evidence relating to this Queen Gilukhipa. Even if Tiye was taking her children from her and thus depriving her of her statues as royal mother, one would expect to hear something from her?

I find that very unlikely to be honest.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Anneke, a nice piece of additional information to the information already provided by Sothis... and very logical.

OK, it's close to 3 am now, so I call it a day! Have a pleasant evening and hope to see everyone back in good health!

BTW Anneke, how was the book? Is it a good read?

Richard, aka
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