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Yet another DNA-article
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Thanks Anneke, a nice piece of additional information to the information already provided by Sothis... and very logical.

You're welcome!


Toth wrote:
BTW Anneke, how was the book? Is it a good read?

So far it's great. Ryan comes across as a really interesting, thoughtful person. I like his writing style a lot.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:



Hello again Sothis

Thank you for all the answers you provided so far, I hope I don't bother you too much with my questions, if so... then just say so and I'll stop, but this has been very informative for me, and I am trying to get some information together that makes this information more comprehendable

This starts to become a bit much for me as interested lay-man, but I'm trying, so this time a more imaginary question: For the sake of argument let's assume that alleles 25 and 31 neither are, nor were, present in my family-tree; now should I read from the above that these two - if possible - all over sudden could appear in my newborn offspring? A kind of mutation in the alleles?

To the second part of your comment, is the conclusion then that Hawass did a "sloppy job", or is the jury still out on that; or is it the well known problem of not sharing all the information he has?

Richard, aka


I really enjoy answering questions as good as I can; after all I am also just a lay-person regarding both Egyptology and DNA-stuff.
As a child can only inherit its parents` alleles all of the alleles of your (fictional?) newborn child should be represented in your and the child`s mother data. If not, you might have a reason to become suspicious.... just kidding!

Our problem is that the family tree presented by Hawass is incomplete and missing some important gene contributors on the babies` maternal side.
There certainly is a ladder on which the suspicious alleles climbed down from Yuya/Tuya to the babies and assuming that KV21A or B is Ankhesenamun and they are hers the historical context suggests those contributors to be Nefertiti and the real Akhenaten (at least for those who don`t think KV55 is him) and somebody else in the earlier generation, maybe Aye.
As Hawass did not bother to work or even just comment on this problem he must be accused of having done a sloppy job.

BTW I do think that he is capable to suppress information which doesn`t suit him although at this stage I don`t want to accuse him of having done so.
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Toth
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Toth wrote:



Hello again Sothis

Thank you for all the answers you provided so far, I hope I don't bother you too much with my questions, if so... then just say so and I'll stop, but this has been very informative for me, and I am trying to get some information together that makes this information more comprehendable

This starts to become a bit much for me as interested lay-man, but I'm trying, so this time a more imaginary question: For the sake of argument let's assume that alleles 25 and 31 neither are, nor were, present in my family-tree; now should I read from the above that these two - if possible - all over sudden could appear in my newborn offspring? A kind of mutation in the alleles?

To the second part of your comment, is the conclusion then that Hawass did a "sloppy job", or is the jury still out on that; or is it the well known problem of not sharing all the information he has?

Richard, aka


I really enjoy answering questions as good as I can; after all I am also just a lay-person regarding both Egyptology and DNA-stuff.
As a child can only inherit its parents` alleles all of the alleles of your (fictional?) newborn child should be represented in your and the child`s mother data. If not, you might have a reason to become suspicious.... just kidding!

Our problem is that the family tree presented by Hawass is incomplete and missing some important gene contributors on the babies` maternal side.
There certainly is a ladder on which the suspicious alleles climbed down from Yuya/Tuya to the babies and assuming that KV21A or B is Ankhesenamun and they are hers the historical context suggests those contributors to be Nefertiti and the real Akhenaten (at least for those who don`t think KV55 is him) and somebody else in the earlier generation, maybe Aye.
As Hawass did not bother to work or even just comment on this problem he must be accused of having done a sloppy job.

BTW I do think that he is capable to suppress information which doesn`t suit him although at this stage I don`t want to accuse him of having done so.


You may be a layman yourself, but you definitely know much more of the subject than I do, so thank you for sharing your knowledge (my thanks is extended to the other participants in this thread!)

Absolutely fictional my offspring, so I don't have any reason to be suspicious Very Happy . Re: suppressing information, I think I have seen that mentioned in other regular (=non critical regarding him) threads here Laughing So this is he same when in an - all blond family - suddenly a baby with red hair is born? Just an ancient set of alleles popping up? Or why certain features skip a generation?

Richard
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:




You may be a layman yourself, but you definitely know much more of the subject than I do, so thank you for sharing your knowledge (my thanks is extended to the other participants in this thread!)

Absolutely fictional my offspring, so I don't have any reason to be suspicious Very Happy . Re: suppressing information, I think I have seen that mentioned in other regular (=non critical regarding him) threads here Laughing So this is he same when in an - all blond family - suddenly a baby with red hair is born? Just an ancient set of alleles popping up? Or why certain features skip a generation?

Richard


Alleles are always inherited the same way: one from the father, one from the mother.
It`s different though with the inheritance of physical features. They are passed on but can be on a recessive gene which is suppressed by a dominant gene and thus might not show up for one or more generations.
Come on, don`t you remember those biology lessons about selective plant breeding and Mendel`s laws? I think that is the stuff you are asking for.
And it is true: two of my children have dark brown eyes with dad having green eyes and mum having blueish eyes. As I am the female part I know for sure that this is only due to the crooked laws of inheritance Very Happy
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Toth
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Toth wrote:




You may be a layman yourself, but you definitely know much more of the subject than I do, so thank you for sharing your knowledge (my thanks is extended to the other participants in this thread!)

Absolutely fictional my offspring, so I don't have any reason to be suspicious Very Happy . Re: suppressing information, I think I have seen that mentioned in other regular (=non critical regarding him) threads here Laughing So this is he same when in an - all blond family - suddenly a baby with red hair is born? Just an ancient set of alleles popping up? Or why certain features skip a generation?

Richard


Alleles are always inherited the same way: one from the father, one from the mother.
It`s different though with the inheritance of physical features. They are passed on but can be on a recessive gene which is suppressed by a dominant gene and thus might not show up for one or more generations.
Come on, don`t you remember those biology lessons about selective plant breeding and Mendel`s laws? I think that is the stuff you are asking for.
And it is true: two of my children have dark brown eyes with dad having green eyes and mum having blueish eyes. As I am the female part I know for sure that this is only due to the crooked laws of inheritance Very Happy


Embarassed I threw biology out of the package when our teacher started those nice and long chemical forumulas like the one for Dextrose; so I may have skipped Mendel's laws as well Embarassed but I admit, that information might have helped understanding this a tad easier

Richard (still blushing)
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Granite
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If, as seems more than likely:
a) KV55 = Tutankhamun's father = Smenkhkare (or a brother of his and Akhenaten's that we haven't heard of), aged 20-25 (according to everybody except ZH)
b) KV35 = his mother = Baketaten or one of her sisters, aged under 25 (according to G. Elliot Smith)
c) Smenkhkare ruled for 1-3 years
d) 'King' Neferneferuaten also reigned for 1-3 years
Then (wait for it):-
Tutankhamen was born around Akhenaten's year 12 (the Durbar year, and more or less when Maketaten died), since he was 9 when he acceded; Smenkhkare would then be between 13 (unlikely) and 18; the mother would probably be a bit older, as she presumably died either in childbirth or at any rate before Smenkhkare married his niece Meritaten when or before he became king - but the older she is, the better (see below). The fact that Tutankhamen's mother is nowhere mentioned in his tomb may suggest there was some scandal attached to his procreation.

This means Smenkhkare was born between years 32 and 37 of Amenhotep III (if we follow Dorman, 2008, and others in discount a co-regency). The problem here is that this makes Tiye a bit long in the tooth (44-9) whenever she gave birth to him, if we assume, as seems most likely, that Amenhotep married her either before he became king or at that time, and that she had reached a nubile age, say 12; continuation of the line had to be guaranteed as soon as possible. Obviously, the older Smenkhkare is at death, the younger she is for his birth. Allowing for a short co-regency of 2-4 years between Amenhotep III and IV (which Dorman concedes may be possible) makes things easier. Making her younger on her husband's accession also helps. And, of course, she would not be the first woman to have a child around age 45 - especially if she had had several pregnancies during her life (3 sons and 4 daughters that we know of, plus possible miscarriages, infant deaths or simply offspring we have never heard of).

We will probably never know, but those appear to be the figures we have to juggle with. Moving on to a more speculative area, Meritaten would do nicely as 'King' Neferneferuaten after her husband's death, acting as regent for Tutankhamen (or 'doing a Hatshepsut'!), Then something happened after two years or so, and the boy became king (the unappealing last of the line, like Emperor Claudius?).
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
You're right Kylejustin, this is definitely exotic enough, almost bordering fringe, I would say .


Bordering on insanity I'd say. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now they've had another year to work on it, and to bring in other perhaps better qualified laboratories, maybe we'll get more convincing DNA results, plus some data on the mummies of Thutmose IV and the Young Boy from KV35. A comparison of Thutmose III with the two young ladies from KV21 might also be revealing. Of course, it all depends whether it is deemed the right time for us poor mortals to be told...
Another new year wish is to be able to see a professional study of the gold foil sheets from KV55, at present in Cairo and the Met (?).
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see, on another thread here (Ramsses II's Children on 'Pharaohs etc') that the Z-Team are pressing ahead with their DNA study of XIX Dynasty mummies. Pity they couldn't have tied uop the loose ends in the XVIII Dynasty first, but hardly surprising, given their priorities.
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stephaniep
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think that if the DNA results were what he expected, they would have been released. The fact that they have not been, especially the mtDNA, makes me think they are outside what Hawass wanted to find. Which makes it all the more irritating that they are hidden away. Otherwise, why the silence?

He was supposed to release the rest of the 18th dynasty in a press release or something and answer questions months ago because he had at that point moved on to 19th dynasty (18th dynasty apparently not living up to his theories/expectations) but has not.

He acts like an 18th century European monarch. Lese magesty. Maybe we'll get it after 100% Egyptian, red-headed Ramesses hits the TV screen (with the DNA screen shots hidden or faked). Maybe never.
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