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texts referring to the tasherits
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:09 am    Post subject: texts referring to the tasherits Reply with quote

I am interested in reading translations of one or more texts referring to the alleged tasherit children of Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten.
But it would have to be the exact wordings showing gaps in the texts and reconstructed parts.

I think there was such a translation in one of the older threads but I could not spot it again.

Can anyone post a translation or give an online source?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I managed to get hold of a translation regarding Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit.
It is on this page
http://www.squidoo.com/ankhesenpaaten-tasherit

This inscription seems to be the only one that mentions that girl.

But what is intruiging is that the text is so fragmentary once you leave out all the additions made by the translator that IMO it gives no evidence at all of this girl being Ankhesenpaaten`s daughter let alone Akhenaten being her father.
Even the name of the "little one" herself is only preserved as "-aten-tasherit", so it could have been combined with almost anything, from Merit-, Ankhesenpa-, Neferneferu- or something entirely different.

Here is the text as far as it is preserved, disregarding any additions:

....his body, his beloved, Ankhesenpa.....
Neferneferu...Nefertiti, may she live for ever.......aten the Younger,..
....rn of the King`s Great Wife
That`s all.
I can`t believe that this inscription triggered the belief that Akhenaten fathered a daughter with his own daughter.

Besides, the talatat is not dated , it could be from about any time in Akhenaten`s reign after his move to Akhetaten.
It is usually presumed that Ankhesenpaaten -tasherit is mentioned in his year 16 or 17, but where is the proof? Note that Nefertiti is mentioned as a living person and is referred to as GRW which to me suggests an earlier time than the end of Akhi`s reign. At this time Ankhesenpaaten would most probably have been far too young to bear children.

I think this inscription could be just another "list" of all of Nefertiti`s daughters, as Neferneferu- could fit in the space before "aten-tasherit" and she is known to be the next daughter after Ankhesenpaaten herself.

Are there any other texts reffering to one or both tasherits?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote :
Quote:
Are there any other texts reffering to one or both tasherits?


The tasherits on the Hermopolis blocks
Roerder Amarna Reliefs

Plate 14, 307-viA :
Ankhesenpaaten tasherit, born of Ankhesenpaaten

Plate 17, 500 -viiiC :
Meretaten tasherit, (born of Meretaten), (born of) Akhenaten.

Plate 19, 234 -vi :
Ankhesenpaaten tasherit, born of Ankhesenpaaten, (of) Akhenaten each born of Nefertity

Plate 29, 632 -viiiA :
Unidentified (......) tasherit

Plate 70, 157 -viii (left) and (right) :
'Ankhesenpaaten tasherit' born of Ankhesenpaaten, of Akhenaten

Plate 106, 451 -viiC :
Born of Ankhesenpaaten, born of Nefertity

Plate 109, 478 -viiC (late) :
Meritaten tasherit, born of Meretaten

Plate 159, 364 -viii :
Meretaten tasherit, born of Meretaten

Plate 200, PC-209 :
Ankhesenpaaten (tasherit), born of Ankhesenpaaten

Plate 200, PC-192 :
Ankhesenpaaten tasherit, born of (Ankhesenpaaten)

Source :
The Akhenaten Temple Project
Volume I
Initital Discoveries
By Donald B. Redford -Ray Winfield Smith
Chapter 6 : Akhenaten - Nefertity, and the Princesses
pg. 90-91-92
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Rozette, that`s quite a lot Shocked

Is it known which of the inscriptions are usurped from Kiya`s and reinscribed?
I have heard several times that all the inscriptions originally mentioned Kiya, but I am not sure if this is true or if there or some original ones too.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tasherits on the Hermopolis blocks - The Plates
Source pictures:G. Roeder and R. Hanke , Amarna-Reliefs aus Hermopolis, HAB 2, Hildesheim (1978)


Plate 14, 307-viA :
Ankhesenpaaten tasherit, born of Ankhesenpaaten


Plate 17, 500 -viiiC :
Meretaten tasherit, (born of Meretaten), (born of) Akhenaten.


Plate 19, 234 -vi :
Ankhesenpaaten tasherit, born of Ankhesenpaaten, (of) Akhenaten each born of Nefertity


Plate 29, 632 -viiiA :
Unidentified (......) tasherit


Plate 70, 157 -viii (left) and (right) :
'Ankhesenpaaten tasherit' born of Ankhesenpaaten, of Akhenaten


Plate 106, 451 -viiC :
Born of Ankhesenpaaten, born of Nefertity


Plate 109, 478 -viiC (late) :
Meritaten tasherit, born of Meretaten


Plate 159, 364 -viii :
Meretaten tasherit, born of Meretaten


Plate 200, PC-209 :
Ankhesenpaaten (tasherit), born of Ankhesenpaaten


Plate 200, PC-192 :
Ankhesenpaaten tasherit, born of (Ankhesenpaaten)


Sothis wrote :
Quote:
Is it known which of the inscriptions are usurped from Kiya`s and reinscribed?
.


Yes, it is known. But I don't have the text of Roeder's book, I only have pictures of all the plates in the book, and Redford in his book doesn't mentioned on which blocks the names are written over.

Quote Redford
pg 93
The Akhenaten Temple Project
Volume I
Initital Discoveries
By Donald B. Redford -Ray Winfield Smith
Chapter 6 : Akhenaten - Nefertity, and the Princesses

Not a few of the text identifying daughters and granddaughters are palimpsest.
There seem to be two kinds : (1) cases in which Meretaten's name is written over an earlier text, and is accompanied by Akhenaten's in a statement of filiation, and (2) examples of a granddaughter's name, usually Meretaten junior, superimposed over another, most often in the scene involving one "daughter"-figure behind mother. Only rarely do Ankhesenpaaten and her daughter appear palimpsest.
The present author takes it that the examples of Meretaten and her daughter date from the closing years of Akhenaten's reign.
In those other unfortunately incomplete scenes in which one of the two junior namesakes makes her appearance, ti is difficult to identify the adults in the scene.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for this really great job!

I take it that many of the inscriptions have required a great deal of reconstruction work.

I have only two more questions on this:

Does the phrase "Only rarely do Ankhesenpaaten and her daughter appear palimpsest" mean that most of her images and inscriptions seem to have been carved originally for her and her daughter?

And what are the reasons for the dating to the end of the reign, is it due to the style or are there more indications?

Sorry, I got still one more: what is the term "n Akhenaten" which sometimes appears behind the princesses` names supposed to mean? Is it an abbreviation of the more common " sat nesu n khetef" or does it refer to him in a different way?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote :
Quote:
have only two more questions on this:

Does the phrase "Only rarely do Ankhesenpaaten and her daughter appear palimpsest" mean that most of her images and inscriptions seem to have been carved originally for her and her daughter?


Yes, that’s what Redford means.

Also according to Redford the Karnak talatat strongly support a date for the birth of Ankhesenpaaten senior at the very close of the royal family’s stay at Thebes.
This means that it is difficult to date the Ankhesenpaaton and daughter Hermopolis text before the last year of Akhenaten. Because she was probably to young to have children.

He also thinks that Nefertity was still alive at the end of the reign of Akhenaten since her name Nefertity “may she live!” is mentioned in the filiation of Ankhesenpaaten along with Ankhesenpaaten junior (Roeder, Amarna Reliefs, pl 106, (451-viic) .
Redford doesn’t mentioned who the father of Ankhesenpaaton junior is.


Quote:
And what are the reasons for the dating to the end of the reign, is it due to the style or are there more indications?



Redford means that the examples of Meretaten and her daughter date from the clossing years of Akhenaten's reign, when Meritaten and Smenkhkare were in the ascendent.

Quote:
Sorry, I got still one more: what is the term "n Akhenaten" which sometimes appears behind the princesses` names supposed to mean? Is it an abbreviation of the more common " sat nesu n khetef" or does it refer to him in a different way?


Quote Redford
Pg 93-94
There is a simple and rather clear pattern in the organization of the family in Amarna iconography. The requirements are as follows : the figure of the king must come first and take priority, as first in line after the disc; he must be followed by a royal mother whose relationship to him must be made clear by her stance and by titles above her head; she must be followed in third place by a daughter (or daughters), and in keeping with Akhenaten’s own dictum that she is to be under her mother’s authority, the daughters titulary reflects primarily her filial relationship to Nefertity (Kiya); Once this canon had become normative, as it had very early in the reign, the form and not the content began to dominate.
When Meretaten and Ankhesenpaaten bore daughters themselves, their occasional inclusion in the family offering scene was mechanical. The position of the king was still filled by Akhenaten (though nothing could prevent Smenkhakare, as coregent, from appearing in this role), the position of royal mother by his daughter, and the position of daughter by the newborn infant. Hence, the recutting of texts in earlier scenes, noted above, to identify the daughter-figure as a granddaughter.
The latter’s relationship to the royal mother is indicated by a normal statement of filiation which gives the mother’s name alone, but the royal mother’s relationship to the king-figure (if the latter be Akhenaten) cannot be reflected in reginal titles, as she is not the king’s wife ! It must be indicated by a similar statement of filiation, but this time referring to the king. Hence, such inscriptional labels as “king’s bodily daughter X-junior, born of the king’s bodily daughter X-(senior), born of Neferkheperure Wa-en-re” should not be interpreted as proof of an incestuous marriage, nor that Nefertity had fallen from favour, much less that she was now deceased and so no longer figured in the family. The roles on the family motif, as now filled, simply had no place for her.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Meritaten ever called Akhenaten`s wife or Great Royal Wife?

And does Redford make any suggestions as to who the father(s) of the Tasherits could have been?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote :
Quote:
Is Meritaten ever called Akhenaten`s wife or Great Royal Wife?


Redford date Meretaten's becoming chief queen to year 15 of Akhenaten's reign.


Sothis wrote :
Quote:
And does Redford make any suggestions as to who the father(s) of the Tasherits could have been?


According Redford Smenkhkare is the father of Meretaten tasherit and Tutankhamun the father of Ankhesenpaaten tasherit.

Personally, I think that Akhenaten was the father of both girls.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.

I'll update the Squidoo page in the next week or so.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having read Redford`s "Akhenaten" I must say that I found his argumentation regarding the time of Ankhesenpaaten` s birth quite weak.

He only relies on the (undated) reliefs in the Karnak-temples and argues that she must have been born shortly before the royal family left for Akhetaten in year five as she is only represented three times.

But I think that she was probably born even later.

First, it is not at all certain that Akhenaten went at that time to the site of Akhetaten to stay there. Aldred assumes in his book on Akhenaten that he went there to consecrate the first boundary stelae in year five, then obviously returned to Thebes to come back in year 6 and take up residence in a tent at the site of Akhetaten.
But even if he left Thebes permanently in year five, it is not likely that he waited for his temples there to be finished and decorated given his eagerness to live at the site of his new capital-to-be.

The few images of Ankhesenpaaten can well have been added at any time after the move once the news of her birth had been received.

IMO the boundary steala at Akhetaten give far more precise information as many of them are dated.
Most of those which date from year five or six do not represent Ankhesenpaaten or they show her just in a way that seems to indicate later additions.
On one stela mentioned by Aldred (probably stela M) Akhenaten wishes a long life and health for Nefertiti and the two older daughters.
Wouldn`t he have included his third daughter in his wish had she already been born in year five or six? I think he surely would have done so, there was no reason for him to leave her out.

My point is that if Ankhesenpaaten was born later, maybe in year 7, it would be very unlikely that she could have given birth ten years later.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Redford mentions in Akhenaten, the Heretic King, that Ankhesenpaaten already appears in the talatats from Karnak. She is attested at least 3 times, and this evidence leads Redford to conclude that she was born by year 4 at the latest.

We do not know at all how old a child would have to be to be included in a scene or even how the choice was made to include them or not. If they are shown shaking a sistrum, does that mean they were actually doing that and had to be able to at least walk to be included in the scene?

Why are some of the younger daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti not depicted at all in the tomb Huya during the durbar in year 12, while they are shown behind their parents in the tomb of Meryre II? Not being included in the scene there clearly does not necessarily imply they were not there, so who knows why Ankhesenpaaten was or was not included in some of the early scenes in Amarna?

It seems to me that the Karnak evidence suggests an earlier date of birth. People could be added retroactively to a scene, but I think that the Karnak temples were not really worked on after say year 5 when court moved to Amarna.

I find a birth in year 7 or so a lot harder to reconcile with the rest of the evidence. There is a fresco (which includes the famous scene of Neferure and Neferneferuaten Tasherit seated on a pillow) which was a family scene estimated to date to year 9. In that scene the baby Setepenre was shown seated on Nefertiti's lap. That would mean that Setepenre was born in year 8 or 9. And that does mean that Ankhesenpaaten can be born at the latest in year 5 or 6 and likely a bit earlier than that. Unless we assume that say Neferneferure and Neferneferuaten were twins ? Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
It seems to me that the Karnak evidence suggests an earlier date of birth. People could be added retroactively to a scene, but I think that the Karnak temples were not really worked on after say year 5 when court moved to Amarna.

I find a birth in year 7 or so a lot harder to reconcile with the rest of the evidence. There is a fresco (which includes the famous scene of Neferure and Neferneferuaten Tasherit seated on a pillow) which was a family scene estimated to date to year 9. In that scene the baby Setepenre was shown seated on Nefertiti's lap. That would mean that Setepenre was born in year 8 or 9. And that does mean that Ankhesenpaaten can be born at the latest in year 5 or 6 and likely a bit earlier than that. Unless we assume that say Neferneferure and Neferneferuaten were twins ? Smile


While twins are considered a blessing in ancient Egypt (Baines 1985), there's no evidence that Neferneferuaten-tasherit and Neferneferure were twins. Neferneferuaten(-tasherit)'s birth is never determined textually, except that we know that her next sister, Neferneferure, has a stated birth date of Year 9 Akhenaten. So, this presumes that Neferneferuaten-tasherit was born between the Years 7-8 Akhenaten, and would have been at least 9 years old when her father died in Year 17 Akhenaten, and 3 years older than Tutankhamun, who appears to have been born in year 12 Akhenaten.

The present thinking in the Egyptological field follows Redford's (1976) estimation that Meritaten was born either before her father's reign began or during Year 1 of his reign. Maketaten was born about year 2 or 3 Akhenaten, and Ankhsenpaaten about Year 4 Akhenaten, since she is represented on the Gem-Pa-Aten talatat at Karnak (although some scholars do maintain a year 6 Akhenaten birth, mainly Murnane and van Siclen 1993). As far as Egyptological works go, no one has ever claimed a Year 7 or later birth date for Ankhsenpaaten.

The final daughter, Setepenre, was definitely born before Year 12 Akhenaten, as she and all of her elder sisters appear as children in the Year 12 Durbar scene, in which Neferneferure (Daughter no. 5) is old enough to carry a small gazelle in her arms during the procession of the daughters behind the throne of their parents. This scene can be found in the tomb of Meryre at Amarna (Green in Arnold 1996: 10-14).

Reference:

Arnold, D. 1996. The Royal Women of Amarna: Images of Beauty from Ancient Egypt. New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art/Harry N. Abrams, Inc.

Baines, J. 1985. Egyptian Twins. Orientalia 30: 461-482.

Murnane, W. J. and C. C. van Siclen. 1993. The Boundary Stelae of Akhenaten. Studies in Egyptology. London: Kegan Paul International.

Smith, R. W. and D. B. Redford. 1976. The Akhenaten Temple Project. Vol. I: Initial Discoveries. Warminster: Aris and Phillips.

HTH.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the added info neseret.

My comment about the twins was a little tongue in cheek to be honest Smile

I am curious about Neferneferure's birth. Where is it mentioned that she is born in year 9? Maybe I'm reading it wrong or maybe it's outdated, but I thought the King's house scene with the whole family including Setepenre is dated to roughly year 9 ? I can't remember why, but I'm assuming they found a part of an inscription that contains the early form of the Aten indicating an approximate year 9? Or have they reconsidered the dating and place that scene in a later year? Neferure's birth in year 9 would place the construction of the scene in the King's House in year 10 or 11 then because Setepenre is shown there as well.

The depictions of Ankhesenpaaten in Karnak, are those in the general Gem-pa-aten temple or also in the hut-benben? I gather Meritaten appears relatively often in the hut-benben scenes with her mother and seems to be the only one depicted there?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Thanks for the added info neseret.

My comment about the twins was a little tongue in cheek to be honest Smile

I am curious about Neferneferure's birth. Where is it mentioned that she is born in year 9? Maybe I'm reading it wrong or maybe it's outdated, but I thought the King's house scene with the whole family including Setepenre is dated to roughly year 9 ? I can't remember why, but I'm assuming they found a part of an inscription that contains the early form of the Aten indicating an approximate year 9? Or have they reconsidered the dating and place that scene in a later year? Neferure's birth in year 9 would place the construction of the scene in the King's House in year 10 or 11 then because Setepenre is shown there as well.

The depictions of Ankhesenpaaten in Karnak, are those in the general Gem-pa-aten temple or also in the hut-benben? I gather Meritaten appears relatively often in the hut-benben scenes with her mother and seems to be the only one depicted there?


The "whole family scene" you refer to is as you say estimated to date from year 9 because of the appearance of the earlier form of Aten`s name.
But if Neferneferure`s birth is attested to year 9, than this cannot be true.
I`d rather think that in this scene we have an example of an exceptionally late use of this earlier name form.
Maybe the use of both forms of the Aten`s name overlapped for some time so that both forms were acceptable?

If Nefernferu was born in year 9 Ankhesenpaaten could well have been born late in year 5 or in year 6 with Neferneferuaten-tasherit being squeezed in between years 6 and 9.

I still maintain that Ankhesenpaatens depictions at Karnak even if they were more frequent do not prove she must have been born before year 5 as it is not known when the temples there were finished.
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