Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Which Pharaoh reformed religion from Atenism?
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

Joined: 20 Feb 2010
Posts: 266
Location: RI

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
Does Horemheb say he was running the country under Tutankhamun? He doesn't, you know. He merely says, "the king," which leaves open the question of which king he was supposedly named "deputy regent" under.

Jacobus Van Dijk says it must certainly be Tut, starting the bottom of pg 14 of the PDF I linked above.

He also says (page 47) that the description of Horemheb's pre-royal career in his Coronation Text reflects historical facts rather than being a deliberate distortion of the facts.

In the aftermath of the Aten experiment, Egypt was in dire straits: civil unrest, perhaps of the type we are currently witnessing, financial disarray and plague to set a few examples. it has always seemed inconceivable to me that a nine-year-old would be in any of ruler position whatsoever in those circumstances, especially one with his tainted parentage.

I have always felt, in part because of his monuments, that Tut and Ankhesenamun were just there to atone for the Atenists' error in judgement and their primary duty was to make attrition to the God so highly offended both spiritually and financially: Amun, and of course the rest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Is "hry rpa.t" the dame as "iry pa`t"?

Yes, that was a mistake on my part: the term /hry rpa.t/ means "highest of noblemen/counts" and is apparently been mistranslated as "Deputy Regent." I apparently was typing too fast for thought there. /iry-pa.t/ can also be translated as /r-pa.t/, with the femine equivalent of /r.t-pa.t/.

Sothis wrote:
In his essay on Horemheb`s tomb vanDijk points out that the title iry pa`t occurs frequently in his tomb, combined with other terms as well as standing on its own.

You have to understand that just about everyone of the elite class was /iry-pa.t/, for the term means "noble," something along the line of "count" or "earl." Royal women, for example, generally held the feminine equivalent of the title, /(i)r.t-pa.t/ ('countess'), such as Tiye, but then again so did Thuya, her mother, who was the lady-in-waiting to the royal household of Amenhotep III. It's just not that uncommon a title amongst the elite.

So, to be honest, I'm not impressed by van Dijk's argument that simply because Horemheb entitles himself as /iry-pa.t/ that this means he ie "deputy regent" of the land.

This term, /iry-pa.t/, as Ward notes, has long been a mistranslated term as "hereditary prince/prince regent" by a number of scholars, but Ward noted that men (and women) were often given /iry-pa.t/ titles as part of a boon from the king, as a conveyance of nobility on them (Ward 1982: 102-103; No. 850; 854-857), which meant that the /iry-pa.t/ title was not always a hereditary one, or even one connected to the royal house (Ward 1986: 46).

The term /iry-pa.t/ literally means "keeper of nobility/aristocracy," which is a far cry from meaning "hereditary prince/prince regent."

I think the term which convey Horemheb's real power during the reign of his preceding king (whomever this may be) is /ra-Hry/, which means (literally) "chief speaker", or 'chief spokesman.' This title spoke for the king in certain situations, and Horehmeb would have commanded a great deal of respect while possessing that title.


Ward, W. A. 1982. Index of Administrative and Religious Titles of the Middle Kingdom. Beirut: American University of Beirut.

Ward, W. A. 1986. Essays on Feminine Titles of the Middle Kingdom and Related Subjects. Beirut: American University of Beirut.
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group