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The Eldest Gods

 
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Ankhre
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: The Eldest Gods Reply with quote

This has always been a question for me- who was the 'original' pantheon of the predynastic and early dynastic periods? From early names and the Narmer Pallette I see Neith, Horus, Seth, and Ra; I have heard that Min, Thoth, and Wepawet were also worshipped, this remains unconfirmed to me.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think predynastic statues have been found that are thought to refer to Min (or at least some ithyphallic god). I remember a news item about this from a couple of years ago.

Other than that the absence of writing makes it hard to identify the predynastic gods.
I thought for instance that there was some debate about the identity of the goddess on the Narmer palette? I think Bat has been suggested instead of Hathor for that one.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bat and Hathor look different?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I thought for instance that there was some debate about the identity of the goddess on the Narmer palette? I think Bat has been suggested instead of Hathor for that one.


If one goes strictly by the inward curled horn on the headdress of the 'goddess' (found in multiple images on Narmer's kilt, and in dual portrayals on the top of the palette, on both sides), one would think that /bA.t/ is suggested rather than Hathor. Hathor's cult is generally held to have arisen no earlier than the 4th Dynasty, which tends to conclude the Narmer Palette shows a representation of /bA.t/ rather than Hathor.


Bovine goddess on the top of the Narmer Palette (recto and obverse)

See on this

Fischer, H. G. 1962. Cult and Nome of the Goddess Bat. JARCE 1: 7-24.

HTH.
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Pharaoh Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:06 pm    Post subject: Maat Reply with quote

I totally agree with Hathor as one of them, but no one mentioned Maat. From the very beginning she was known to have seperated the Earth and Sky and held it up. Hathor is the cosmic mother, which is why she has cow horns, they symbolize the nurishment given from the cow to their children/ the Egyptians. A form of Isis has also been seen from the very shadowy times of Pre-Dynastic Egypt. But its interesting to note that the gods were all female in the beginning, which is when the Great Egyptian Empire was at its peak.

I myself believe Egypt to be much older then 5000 years. It seems unreasonable with the fact they were at the peak when they just started? That, as well as all the information given by Robert Shooch and John Anthony West starting the questions to be raised, causing Zahi Hawass, revered Egyptologist to quit.

But anyway, yeah the female images were the first to be praised, and in almost all reliefs, the female is seen holding the man in some form and nott the other way around which would seem more power was with the women, as though she was the head of the house, and not the man. I like the idea myself, but yeah Maat Isis Hathor, the first and most powerful of the gods.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Maat Reply with quote

Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
I myself believe Egypt to be much older then 5000 years.


We all do. And it is. We have Ancient Rock Art (Sinai, etc) which backs that up with no doubts in our minds. I believe though you are referring to something different though.

Laughing Wink

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Pharaoh Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Maat Reply with quote

Styler78 wrote:
Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
I myself believe Egypt to be much older then 5000 years.


We all do. And it is. We have Ancient Rock Art (Sinai, etc) which backs that up with no doubts in our minds. I believe though you are referring to something different though.

Laughing Wink

Stuart


Good, i was just talking to some idiots who refuse to listen to ANY other point of view, thank Amun you guys are here

Laughing
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pharaoh Hapshetsut has written:

as well as all the information given by Robert Shooch and John Anthony West

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but if you are accepting the stuff these guys are ranting about, you are entering "woo-woo" land as far as I'm concerned.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Maat Reply with quote

Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Styler78 wrote:
Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
I myself believe Egypt to be much older then 5000 years.


We all do. And it is. We have Ancient Rock Art (Sinai, etc) which backs that up with no doubts in our minds. I believe though you are referring to something different though.

Laughing Wink

Stuart


Good, i was just talking to some idiots who refuse to listen to ANY other point of view, thank Amun you guys are here

Laughing


That said, i am a firm believer of science and archaeology.

Although Egypt is known to be inhabited for many years before the Pharaohs, i do not believe in the theories stating "higher civilisations" and i believe we need to stick with the Dynastic eras Egyptologists follow. I see no reason to accept theories which say otherwise. All of my studies to date strictly stick to the facts (interpreting known artifacts using accepted methods).

There are scholors and researchers who do not follow this approach. My opinion is that this harms Egyptology.

Stuart
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Pharaoh Hapshetsut has written:

as well as all the information given by Robert Shooch and John Anthony West

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but if you are accepting the stuff these guys are ranting about, you are entering "woo-woo" land as far as I'm concerned.


Yet again you came on and express views completely irrelevant. I believe that John Anthony West, who is also an Egyptologist, is correct and to attack the person and not the subject is, using your own words, in very bad taste. When you wrote your comment, i saw not evidence to back up your theories so tell me why a Geologist would know more about stane then an Egyptologist would as Robert Schooch clearly does. You stated that it was "Woo-Woo" but what exactly is woo-woo about it? Cause you didnt offer any other suggestions, any reason why they cant be used as sources because they take extreme views. I consider that idiotic.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:38 am    Post subject: Re: Maat Reply with quote

Styler78 wrote:
Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Styler78 wrote:
Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
I myself believe Egypt to be much older then 5000 years.


We all do. And it is. We have Ancient Rock Art (Sinai, etc) which backs that up with no doubts in our minds. I believe though you are referring to something different though.

Laughing Wink

Stuart


Good, i was just talking to some idiots who refuse to listen to ANY other point of view, thank Amun you guys are here

Laughing


That said, i am a firm believer of science and archaeology.

Although Egypt is known to be inhabited for many years before the Pharaohs, i do not believe in the theories stating "higher civilisations" and i believe we need to stick with the Dynastic eras Egyptologists follow. I see no reason to accept theories which say otherwise. All of my studies to date strictly stick to the facts (interpreting known artifacts using accepted methods).

There are scholors and researchers who do not follow this approach. My opinion is that this harms Egyptology.

Stuart


Really? But how can you dismiss it because it sounds extreme. Fully Human remains are found from 100,000 years ago well before the common era at least. So that means that even though it only took us like 2000 years to get to where we are in this time, that the Ancients couldnt have as well.

Most of the disregard is since we have no evidence of a civilization, but as stated in my idea of the dating of the Sphinx, i talk about how Antarctica, at the time, wouldve been extremely tempurate. Now, covered in sheets and sheets of ice but I believe that that is the Troy, the Disney Land of our society, in which they had a great influence over a global scale, and were nearly destroyed when the Ice Age Ended.

I thought this was all about open minds, and having back and fourths about these, not explicitely saying they cant be because the history of Egypt, comes from a Greek perspective. We continuously repeat it until it is considered fact. if your not looking for something, youll never find it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Yet again you came on and express views completely irrelevant. I believe that John Anthony West, who is also an Egyptologist, is correct and to attack the person and not the subject is, using your own words, in very bad taste.


For one, John Anthony West is not an Egyptologist: he has never claimed to be a trained Egyptologist, and is referred to (though not by himself) as an "independent Egyptologist," which means, in general, someone who studies ancient Egypt, but is not formally trained as one.

As for Schoch's theories of the Sphinx age, contrary to Schoch's paleometeorological conclusions, recent studies by German climatologists Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin, of the University of Cologne, and geologist Judith Bunbury, of St Edmund's College, Cambridge, suggest that the change from a wet to a much drier climate may have occurred later than is currently thought, and that Dynasty IV (the traditional era of the construction of the Sphinx) may still have been a period of significant rainfall; a conclusion also accepted by Mark Lehner. However, Schoch points out that fragile mudbrick structures nearby, indisputably dated to Dynasties I and II, have survived relatively undamaged, indicating that no heavy rainfall has occurred in the region since the Early Dynastic Period.

Colin Reader, a British geologist, agrees that the evidence of weathering indicates prolonged water erosion. Reader found, inter alia, that the flow of rainwater causing the weathering had been stemmed by the construction of 'Khufu's quarries', which lie directly "upstream" of the Sphinx Enclosure, and therefore concludes that the Sphinx must predate the reign of Khufu (2589–2566 BC), and certainly Khafra, by several hundred years. Reader however disagrees with Schoch's palaeometeorological estimates, and instead concludes that the Sphinx dates to the Early Dynastic Period (c. 3150–2686 BC).

Most Egyptologists, dating the building of the Sphinx to Khafra's reign (2520–2492 BC), do not accept the water erosion theory. Alternative explanations for the evidence of weathering, from Aeolian processes and acid rain to exfoliation, haloclasty, thermal expansion, and even the poor quality limestone of the Sphinx, have been put forward by Egyptologists and geologists, including Mark Lehner, James A. Harrell of the University of Toledo, Lal Gauri, John J. Sinai and Jayanta K. Bandyopadhyay, Alex Bordeau, and Lambert Dolphin, a former senior research physicist at SRI International.

Simply because a theory has been expounded over the years does not mean it's necessarily valid, or even widely accepted. Both Schoch and West consider themselves proponents of R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz's theory of a more "ancient" ancient Egypt, which has not, to date, been supported by archaeology or other historical data.

R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz himself was not an Egyptologist, either, but an alchemist and Hermeticist. His theories are generally classified as "Esoteric Egyptianism," and not formally a form of Egyptology.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pharaoh Hapshetsut, as neseret has explained to you (with much more patience than I would have, BTW) West is NOT an Egyptologist. Schoch's theories about the weathering of the Sphinx has some believers, also some who do not think it acceptable. All of them, both pro and con, think the idea of an andvanced civilization 100,000 years or more ago is impossible.
Concerning your question of what is "woo-woo".
Far out, over-the-top, New Age--laughable...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I totally agree with Hathor as one of them, but no one mentioned Maat. From the very beginning she was known to have seperated the Earth and Sky and held it up.


Please be so kind to give us your resource off this statement. It is not Maät who separates the earth (Geb), from the Sky (Nut), it is from in the beginning of A.E. religion and has always been Sju (Sjoe) who separates both.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
anneke wrote:
I thought for instance that there was some debate about the identity of the goddess on the Narmer palette? I think Bat has been suggested instead of Hathor for that one.


If one goes strictly by the inward curled horn on the headdress of the 'goddess' (found in multiple images on Narmer's kilt, and in dual portrayals on the top of the palette, on both sides), one would think that /bA.t/ is suggested rather than Hathor. Hathor's cult is generally held to have arisen no earlier than the 4th Dynasty, which tends to conclude the Narmer Palette shows a representation of /bA.t/ rather than Hathor.


Bovine goddess on the top of the Narmer Palette (recto and obverse)

See on this

Fischer, H. G. 1962. Cult and Nome of the Goddess Bat. JARCE 1: 7-24.

HTH.


I would have to agree with that, Bat was on the Narmer Palette, so she was possibly one of the originals.

I think Shu and Tefnut were originals too, because they bore Geb & Nut together, the earth and sky. Wind and moisture. Or Iusaaset, who was described as the grandmother of all the gods, and the mother of Shu & Tefnut. Her consort was Atum, and Atum was the god of creation. So Atum may have been one of the first.
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