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Bringing Back The Antiquities
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Harsomtis
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
As a native New Yorker, and an Egyptology buff, I have to agree with Hawass about the obelisk. [...] As for not asking for gifts back, I don't know, if I gave someone an antique bowl that had been in my family for generations and I went to their house and found that they were using it as an ashtray, I'd be pretty annoyed.


I totally agree with you about the gift-thing.

I also agree, that Hawass is right. But he could use other words... like: "In egypt, we did everything wrong a long time, _too_. But we learned. I hope, that others will learn, too, and they can save this obelisk. _Otherwise_ they should give him back...."
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Toth
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harsomtis wrote:
Naunacht wrote:
As a native New Yorker, and an Egyptology buff, I have to agree with Hawass about the obelisk. [...] As for not asking for gifts back, I don't know, if I gave someone an antique bowl that had been in my family for generations and I went to their house and found that they were using it as an ashtray, I'd be pretty annoyed.


I totally agree with you about the gift-thing.

I also agree, that Hawass is right. But he could use other words... like: "In egypt, we did everything wrong a long time, _too_. But we learned. I hope, that others will learn, too, and they can save this obelisk. Otherwise they should give him back...."


His ancient ancestors were quite good in diplomacy, he must have missed the "diplomacy gene" when it was distributed; but in fact
Harsomtis wrote:
I totally agree with you about the gift-thing.
is not true; this is one of those occasions where you are against the other option, if you are for the first, being that it is a gift. Who is using the Central Park obelisk as an ashtray? If this is a figure of speech, the only thing that could be said is that the NY City Council could have taken steps to limit the influence of the acidulous atmosphere in that city much earlier; but then, Dr Hawass wouldn't be the person to criticize them, not while that sarcophagus outside the Egyptian Museum is getting smoother and smoother (due to the air pollution the relief is vanishing, just like the relief on the obelisk in New York). If he wants to give an example, restore that sarcophagus Dr. Hawass and take it inside the museum, to show us how it is done Exclamation Exclamation So... even seen from the point of restoration, he should be cleaning his own backyard first instead of displaying a typical NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) behavior!

Richard, aka
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Ranoferhotep
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:

Quote:
Finally, Is the London obelisk, this one's twin, in better shape than the New York obelisk?


I’ve seen it a couple of years ago, was already getting dark and not yet illuminated, but looked in better shape than his twin in N.Y.. Now I must say, I’ve been looking at some recent pics posted on the net in blogs etc…and one can clearly see also that monument is deteriorating due to pollution.
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Toth
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
Naunacht wrote:

Quote:
Finally, Is the London obelisk, this one's twin, in better shape than the New York obelisk?


I’ve seen it a couple of years ago, was already getting dark and not yet illuminated, but looked in better shape than his twin in N.Y.. Now I must say, I’ve been looking at some recent pics posted on the net in blogs etc…and one can clearly see also that monument is deteriorating due to pollution.


(Air) Pollution is the decease our monuments in the major cities suffer from, it goes from London to Amsterdam, Brussels, Berlin, Rome, Athens
Cairo to New York, Washington to name but a few, perhaps the degree of the pollution will differ from case to case, but it still will have its ill-effects on the monuments. We should found a company specialized in restoring these, Ranoferhotep, wouldn't that ne something? Wink

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Ranoferhotep
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Such company’s exist already Toth.
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Harsomtis
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
(Air) Pollution is the decease our monuments


(air) Pollution is not only the end of antique monuments - it is also ours. yes, restoration is important. but maybe we should do something against the cause... because i know no techniques about a restoration of my lung...

More "gifts" from egypt to the world (egypt has so much antiquities - they can never show them all. see for example the "perfect" storage in TT 33) so we dont need too many aeroplanes (air-pollution) to see them in cairo Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harsomtis wrote:
Toth wrote:
(Air) Pollution is the decease our monuments


(air) Pollution is not only the end of antique monuments - it is also ours. yes, restoration is important. but maybe we should do something against the cause... because i know no techniques about a restoration of my lung...

More "gifts" from egypt to the world (egypt has so much antiquities - they can never show them all. see for example the "perfect" storage in TT 33) so we dont need too many aeroplanes (air-pollution) to see them in cairo Wink


Not only that, but this is, after all, a forum to discuss Ancient Egypt and we are in the "Monuments section" so I suggest we stick to that OK Wink BTW: Wasn't there something about AE monuments in Vatican? Quite recently I mean? If I remember correctly that was about an obelisk too; it seems instead of mummies (which cold move?) someone is "chasing Obelisks" now; they don't move or are being moved that easily Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
Toth wrote:
(Air) Pollution is the decease our monuments


(air) Pollution is not only the end of antique monuments - it is also ours. yes, restoration is important. but maybe we should do something against the cause... because i know no techniques about a restoration of my lung...

More "gifts" from egypt to the world (egypt has so much antiquities - they can never show them all. see for example the "perfect" storage in TT 33) so we dont need too many aeroplanes (air-pollution) to see them in cairo Wink


Not only that, but this is, after all, a forum to discuss Ancient Egypt and we are in the "Monuments section" so I suggest we stick to that OK Wink BTW: Wasn't there something about AE monuments in Vatican? Quite recently I mean? If I remember correctly that was about an obelisk too; it seems instead of mummies (which cold move?) someone is "chasing Obelisks" now; they don't move or are being moved that easily Wink

Richard, aka


Yes there was something about the Vatican, a tread also started by Calypsos. It wasn’t about the obelisk that stands now in the court of the Vatican. Also not in such a good shape as I saw it a few years ago. Maybe interesting to start a new tread, A.E. obelisks all over the world and their current state.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
As a native New Yorker, and an Egyptology buff, I have to agree with Hawass about the obelisk.

Generations of New York weather--not to mention air pollution and acid rain have pretty much worn the inscriptions down. On one side--I think it's the north--you can barely see any heiroglyphs with the exception of Ramses II's extra deep cut cartouche. I don't think anyone could be happy about this with the possible exception of Ramses himself who'd probably be thrilled that his name survived a hundred or so years of New York winters.

What's interesting is that most New Yorkers don't even know that the obelisk is there--or what it is. I've taken lifelong residents of the city to see it and they were surprised to learn that 1. It's there. 2. It is over 3,000 years old and 3. it is made up of one big piece of granite that was quarried by hand.

Seriously, the last time the Central Park obelisk got major press was when the body of a murdered woman was found nearby. Most people walk, jog, skate or cycle right past it. Zahi Hawass could show up one day with a crane and a flatbed and put the thing back on a ship to Egypt and most New Yorkers couldn't care less--assuming he'd gotten the proper permits--of course.

This of course doesn't bode well for raising funds for restoring it--although you could make the argument that if it didn't look like a 65 foot high chunk of soot blackened concrete, New Yorkers might start to care. An outreach and educational campaign might bring in enough money to do what needs to be done to it.

As for not asking for gifts back, I don't know, if I gave someone an antique bowl that had been in my family for generations and I went to their house and found that they were using it as an ashtray, I'd be pretty annoyed.

Finally, Is the London obelisk, this one's twin, in better shape than the New York obelisk?


Taken in August 2010:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/styler78/5381890343/

Better condition - Yes, although not in as fine condition to those standing at Luxor and Karnak Temple.

Regards,
Stuart Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About Egyptian gifts to the world; we have a nice little temple in Leiden, I wonder when that will come on his list ( it is in inside in the entrance hall of the Rijksmuseum voor Oudheidkunde) That was given to The Netherlands because of the country's support for the Abu Simbel project; its twin was given to Spain.

Richard.
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TheErrantWilder
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Very Happy The obelisk was a gift to the USA in the 19th century.
Seems to me that you cannot really ask for a gift back.....


Normally no, but this is different. If you give a gift as precious as this and its just left and ignored why shouldn't you ask for it back?
This isn't about brining it back because it belongs in Egypt, its about looking after it and saving it from ruin. If they could look after it in the US they could keep it, but the fact is they can't and I think that makes all the difference. You don't adopt a dog if you can't or wont pay the vet bills.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
About Egyptian gifts to the world; we have a nice little temple in Leiden, I wonder when that will come on his list ( it is in inside in the entrance hall of the Rijksmuseum voor Oudheidkunde) That was given to The Netherlands because of the country's support for the Abu Simbel project; its twin was given to Spain.

Richard.


This will not be on the radar, Richard. The "Save Abu Simbel" project (an absolutely wonderful and successful project) in the 60s/ 70s was a necessity and the gifts that followed will remain outside Egypt. No-one can be accused of theft here.

I am aware of scepticism relating to what Egypt wants back, but i believe the Leiden temple is very safe, as to the one in Khartoum (the temple of Buhen).

This is my understanding.

Stuart
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Styler78 wrote:
Toth wrote:
About Egyptian gifts to the world; we have a nice little temple in Leiden, I wonder when that will come on his list ( it is in inside in the entrance hall of the Rijksmuseum voor Oudheidkunde) That was given to The Netherlands because of the country's support for the Abu Simbel project; its twin was given to Spain.

Richard.


This will not be on the radar, Richard. The "Save Abu Simbel" project (an absolutely wonderful and successful project) in the 60s/ 70s was a necessity and the gifts that followed will remain outside Egypt. No-one can be accused of theft here.

I am aware of scepticism relating to what Egypt wants back, but i believe the Leiden temple is very safe, as to the one in Khartoum (the temple of Buhen).

This is my understanding.

Stuart


Richard, sorry. I meant to thank you for bringing the Temple of taffeh to my attention. This is the Roman Temple you discussed in your last post.

Thank You.

Stuart
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
Toth wrote:
(Air) Pollution is the decease our monuments


(air) Pollution is not only the end of antique monuments - it is also ours. yes, restoration is important. but maybe we should do something against the cause... because i know no techniques about a restoration of my lung...

More "gifts" from egypt to the world (egypt has so much antiquities - they can never show them all. see for example the "perfect" storage in TT 33) so we dont need too many aeroplanes (air-pollution) to see them in cairo Wink


Not only that, but this is, after all, a forum to discuss Ancient Egypt and we are in the "Monuments section" so I suggest we stick to that OK Wink BTW: Wasn't there something about AE monuments in Vatican? Quite recently I mean? If I remember correctly that was about an obelisk too; it seems instead of mummies (which cold move?) someone is "chasing Obelisks" now; they don't move or are being moved that easily Wink

Richard, aka


Hey, that could be a great cable series.

"Follow Dr. Zahi Hawass and a team of heavy equipment operators and conservators as they race around the world to save massive Egyptian obelisks"

Kind of a cross between "Chasing Mummies" and "Ice Road Truckers"

Seriously Richard, I think this has potential! Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Styler78 wrote:
Toth wrote:
About Egyptian gifts to the world; we have a nice little temple in Leiden, I wonder when that will come on his list ( it is in inside in the entrance hall of the Rijksmuseum voor Oudheidkunde) That was given to The Netherlands because of the country's support for the Abu Simbel project; its twin was given to Spain.

Richard.


This will not be on the radar, Richard. The "Save Abu Simbel" project (an absolutely wonderful and successful project) in the 60s/ 70s was a necessity and the gifts that followed will remain outside Egypt. No-one can be accused of theft here.

I am aware of scepticism relating to what Egypt wants back, but i believe the Leiden temple is very safe, as to the one in Khartoum (the temple of Buhen).

This is my understanding.

Stuart


Let's hope so, though I am not too confident in the sanity of Hawass!
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