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Abdication

 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Abdication Reply with quote

I got to wondering yesterday evening...Do we know of any pharaohs ever abdicating, possibly in response to popular protests?
I know one or two were asassinated - possibly more that we haven't heard of (Akhenaten would be a good candidate, as would most of his successors!).
Just wondered...
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Ranoferhotep
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I donít think so. We have some examples of co-regency, e.g. Sethi I and his son Ramses II. In the beginning of A.E. history, before dynastic period, I once read when Pharaoh couldnít perform anymore, our live up to the expectations of his people they were killed, together with their families. This wasnít off course very clever, because they brought instability to their government. The killing of governing kings and heirs was replaced by the Heb-Sed festival. Which was a sort of test for the ruling king to prove he was still worthy to stay in office, but it also was a sort of rebirth for the king.

The institution ďPharaohĒ became in time also a sacred institution, the kings of A.E. were according to clergy and popular belief, direct descendants of the Godís, which were untouchable.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting reply, Ranoferhotep, but I don't see why the removal of a 'bad' pharaoh should necessarily be a bad thing. There are modern examples of the disappearance of a long-time dictator being both good and bad. And a short period of instability is probably preferable to decades of corruption and repression.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Raneferhotep said, the institution of co-regency would allow an aging or ailing king to let his heir take over the active work of governing while he remained in a more advisory role. This made for a nice transition of power too and could help a new king

In addition to Seti I & Ramses II you could add:

Horemhep & Ramses I (maybe) Childless Horemheb gets to name his old army buddy (the one with his own ready made dynasty) his heir.

Amonhotep III and Akhenaton (maybe) I've never really bought this one but I just thought I should put it in)

Thutmose III and Amonhotep II: Named co-regent a few years before his father's death. Thutmose III was getting on in years and may have been concerned that Amonhotep's right to rule could be challanged.

Hatshepsut & Thutmose III: This is a weird one of course because Hatshepsut originally took power because Thutmose III was too young to rule and later declared herself co-regent. As the Queen got older and (if the KV 60 mummy is really hers) her health declined, Thutmose III took on more and more power.

Amonhotep I & Thutmose I: (maybe) I don't think there's any unequivocal evidence but it would have been a good way for the childless Amonhotep to make his choice of heir clear.

As far as popular uprisings, a timely topic if ever there was one, it's possible that there were things like that in those periods when order broke down, say the first intermediate period. As far as during any of the high periods in Egyptian history, about the only pharoah I can think of who might have angered the common people to the point where they revolted could have been Akhenaton.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an intriguing question. I do not remember reading about popular uprisings in the better documented times. The possible coups against Teti and Amenemhet I seem to have resulted in the death of the king and those were not the common people but factions at court I think?

Times that this could have happened might be the intermediate periods. There are long lists of kings including some who only ruled a year or so and not always obvious family connections between one ruler and the next. So that may have been a time when the royal house was not that strong to begin with and revolts may have occurred. The lack of sources from those times may leave us guessing though.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I canít remember also reading something about revolts coming from the people that resulted in abdication of a king. The only revolt, actually a strike, I remember that is documented is the one at the time of Ramses III were the workers of the necropolis stopped working and demanded better conditions, which were also granted by the king. Off course like Anneke says in the intermediate periods were indeed kings followed quickly and we have no direct line of succession, or at least nothing solid about it, it could have occurred. I just think we canít speak of abdication, I guess that certain rulers simply were murdered. Most likely by the entourage off the king, rather than the common people who had almost no access to the king to begin with.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the egyptians didnt really record bad things, in the sense of defeats etc. i should think no one would abdicate from the throne, unless forced, maybe like mary queen of scots. i think co regency's were the way to go. the 12th dynasty utilised that idea, and it seems to have been stable. but if their were abdications, i think maybe the egyptians would have not been proud of them, so would have been happy to forget.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
the egyptians didnt really record bad things, in the sense of defeats etc. i should think no one would abdicate from the throne, unless forced, maybe like mary queen of scots. i think co regency's were the way to go. the 12th dynasty utilised that idea, and it seems to have been stable. but if their were abdications, i think maybe the egyptians would have not been proud of them, so would have been happy to forget.


I donít think this is completely true. We have reports of famine, depicted in tombs, the writing of wise man who state that even in their time former monuments were in decay, we know tombs were looted etc.. A.E. did record also bad things, I guess not all has survived.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the overthrow of a king would lead to power for the successor. So I actually would expect some grandiose statement of the usurper mentioning something like how the gods had helped him remove the unjust ruler and put him on the throne because he really belonged there. (roughly paraphrasing, but you know what I mean Very Happy )
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, maybe the king dethroning the previous one wasnt supposed to accede to the throne, and was himself usurped, thereby getting himself removed from public records?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

كفاية , Mr President!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am afraid that after expel all the foreign press from the country, the Egyptian government will start a real bloodshed in Cairo and Alexandria.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're already arresting 'activists' ande beating up journalists.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just heard El Baradei quote John F. Kennedy:
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

Here's for hoping the army is more interested in the peaceful kind as some of the next moves appear to depend on them.
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