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Mubarak - changes
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Granite
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Minister for Antiquities is such a great patriot, perhaps he could talk to his boss and suggest he tells his goons to stop provoking peaceful protesters and trying to set the Egyptian Museum on fire.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granite wrote:
Quote:
If the Minister for Antiquities is such a great patriot, perhaps he could talk to his boss and suggest he tells his goons to stop provoking peaceful protesters and trying to set the Egyptian Museum on fire.


Well put Granite. Hopefully he'll go with the rest of the regime.

Glad to hear from your first hand reports Priest (and Heket).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was hoping against hope for a peaceful exchange of power in Egypt, but according to this morning's paper, Mubarak is giving an all-out effort to stay, rejecting Obama's suggestion that he begin a transfer of power at once, and saying he intends to stay in office until Sept.
The demonstrations, especially in Cairo, which have been more or less peaceful until this time, have turned ugly. The pro-Mubarak (there are some?) have faced off with the anti-Mubarak group. So far, the anti's seem to be holding ground.
Through all this turmoil, I am deeply saddened by our lack of knowledge of what, exactly, is happening to the antiquities, and in particular the Egyptian Museum. There are so many confliting reports. Hawass say most thing are all right. Osirisnet reports of much looting and destruction, not only in the Museusm by at many sites. I wish we could get reports that have been verified by people who have actually seen what's going on!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could not agree with you more.

I can't believe how the beautiful event that a people created out of love for their country and a desire for democracy has been destroyed by this creep Mubarak. All the fighting going on yesterday that was engineered by Mubarak thugs is awful. He can't go too soon. I have complained to all my congress people and Obama, which is totally ineffective, but what else is there to do?

Like you I find the silence about the egyptian museum troubling, but it is in keeping with silence on other troubling topics like DNA. One thing that worries me is that there are replicas of the Tut stuff that got broken (I am assuming from the fake Tut show going around the world) and if he would be unscrupulous enough to replace any broken/stolen objects with fakes to save face.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From an interview with Christiane Amanpour I am fed up. After 62 yrs in public service I have had enough. I want to go.

Also this is happening: 20:48 CET: Activist Gigi Ibrahim tweets: "Hmmm activists disappearing and journalists are being beaten up, keep an eye on me, I might be next." and also this:

21:02 CET: BBC Arabic Correspondent Khaled Ezzelarab says military police have arrested representatives of both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and then this:

21:19 CET: Egyptian police arrest seven youth leaders of the protests in Tahrir Square shortly after they visited Mohamed ElBaradei, their families told AFP.

source:
BBC


IMNSHO it would be better if Mubarak word step down now before this excalates into an all-out civil war.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mubarak is clearly bent on going down in a bloodbath, if he can manage it. The recently appointed Minister for Antiquities, who has a personal link with Mubarak, one hears, is guilty by association.
As for the real state of affairs inside the Egyptian Museum and elsewhere in the country, who knows? It is all very sad, especially for the brave Egyptian nation.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe Mubarak is wanting a bloodbath. I think he genuinely wants Egypt to be a stable, strong country. However, the ministers had far too much power particularly the Interior Minister who ran the police and security services. These have historically been brutally oppressive of their own population.
We have news reports that the bank accounts of the outgoing ministers and their passports have been seized. This is almost certainly to appease the pro democracy supporters and the outside world.
The army are historically neutral and the best we can hope for is a military security control to support the transition government.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Priest of Hekat wrote:
I don't believe Mubarak is wanting a bloodbath. I think he genuinely wants Egypt to be a stable, strong country. However, the ministers had far too much power particularly the Interior Minister who ran the police and security services. These have historically been brutally oppressive of their own population.
We have news reports that the bank accounts of the outgoing ministers and their passports have been seized. This is almost certainly to appease the pro democracy supporters and the outside world.
The army are historically neutral and the best we can hope for is a military security control to support the transition government.


I think you may very well be right.

I find the latest developments rather interesting in that light. There are now reports that Mubarak has resigned form his political party. He is still in place as President but that may be necessary. Resigning from his party gives a very serious signal that he considers his political career as being over. Which does show he is reading the writing on the wall (don't know if he's reading the small print too Smile )
The resignation of some other people seems to indicate that the people in the party recognize that these ministers are considered part of the problem as well.

In order to have real open elections changes in the constitution are necessary, or at the very least some of the parties involved need official status. That cannot happen unless he stays in place and makes that happen.
He may have very well been right when he said that resigning may result in chaos. Can you imagine what would happen if there were elections and some groups were not represented at all?

The road to full democracy is difficult. I do find it heartening that the army seem to have decided to not turn on its people.

The attacks on journalists and human rights workers are a huge problem, but it seems a bit naive to expect everything to change for the better in a short time. The security forces will either need to be disbanded or rigorously reorganized. The fact that they are acting in a way that is not in line with a free society is not really surprising. It will be a big undertaking to get change this around. They have always been told they are there to defend Egypt against terrorists and "riff-raff". That leads to an "us against them" mentality I would think.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke, I'm afraid you have been misinformed; Mubarak has not resigned from his party, but his son, Gamal, and the leading members have. This does not appear to be terribly significant - just a sop to the masses. The real problem is that the constitution is so rigged that it is very difficult to get rid of the incumbent president, and practically impossible, as it stands, to elect a new one from outside the ruling party. This is the way of dictatorships, and the only solution is to rush through constitutional reforms in a parliament in which 90% of the MPs are from Mubarak's party.
In Spain, in a similar situation in 1975-8, the parliament Franco left behind conveniently 'forgot' the undertakings they had made to basically perpetuate his regime, and voted in democracy. It was a case of either commit political suicide by liquidating the old regime or face Armageddon. The Egyptian parliament may have to face a similar dilemma,and we can only hope that common sense and national spirit prevail.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Priest of Hekat wrote:
I don't believe Mubarak is wanting a bloodbath. I think he genuinely wants Egypt to be a stable, strong country. However, the ministers had far too much power particularly the Interior Minister who ran the police and security services. These have historically been brutally oppressive of their own population.
We have news reports that the bank accounts of the outgoing ministers and their passports have been seized. This is almost certainly to appease the pro democracy supporters and the outside world.
The army are historically neutral and the best we can hope for is a military security control to support the transition government.


I think you may very well be right.

I find the latest developments rather interesting in that light. There are now reports that Mubarak has resigned form his political party. He is still in place as President but that may be necessary. Resigning from his party gives a very serious signal that he considers his political career as being over. Which does show he is reading the writing on the wall (don't know if he's reading the small print too Smile )
The resignation of some other people seems to indicate that the people in the party recognize that these ministers are considered part of the problem as well.

In order to have real open elections changes in the constitution are necessary, or at the very least some of the parties involved need official status. That cannot happen unless he stays in place and makes that happen.
He may have very well been right when he said that resigning may result in chaos. Can you imagine what would happen if there were elections and some groups were not represented at all?

The road to full democracy is difficult. I do find it heartening that the army seem to have decided to not turn on its people.

The attacks on journalists and human rights workers are a huge problem, but it seems a bit naive to expect everything to change for the better in a short time. The security forces will either need to be disbanded or rigorously reorganized. The fact that they are acting in a way that is not in line with a free society is not really surprising. It will be a big undertaking to get change this around. They have always been told they are there to defend Egypt against terrorists and "riff-raff". That leads to an "us against them" mentality I would think.


Mr. Mubarak's resignation from the NDP has been contradicted alresy by Egypt's state television.

Also Discovery claims that the two beheaded mummies are two unknown ancient Egyptians, an non-royals. We will see.

@Theban Moon: You're a celebrity now, Wink you have been quoted extensively in the Discovery article and your database is linked to as well (I don't know if you should be happy with that, though)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granite wrote:
Anneke, I'm afraid you have been misinformed; Mubarak has not resigned from his party, but his son, Gamal, and the leading members have. This does not appear to be terribly significant - just a sop to the masses. The real problem is that the constitution is so rigged that it is very difficult to get rid of the incumbent president, and practically impossible, as it stands, to elect a new one from outside the ruling party. This is the way of dictatorships, and the only solution is to rush through constitutional reforms in a parliament in which 90% of the MPs are from Mubarak's party.
In Spain, in a similar situation in 1975-8, the parliament Franco left behind conveniently 'forgot' the undertakings they had made to basically perpetuate his regime, and voted in democracy. It was a case of either commit political suicide by liquidating the old regime or face Armageddon. The Egyptian parliament may have to face a similar dilemma,and we can only hope that common sense and national spirit prevail.


I noticed later that the initial reports of Mubarak's stepping down as head of the party were retracted. The news is now:
"The members of the executive committee resigned from their posts. It was decided to name Hossam Badrawi secretary general of the party,"

I rather disagree with you about its significance. The fact that Gamal has stepped down IS significant due to the fact that one of the complaints had been that Hosni Mubarak had been trying to pass power on to his son.
So I would not so summarily dismiss the news as you appear to be doing.

I do agree it is not nearly sufficient to solve the problems.

And the problem with the system you outlined is what I was arguing above. The party in power now will have to change the constitution. Even if they step down right now, that will not solve the problem. As a matter of fact that will introduce a whole new set of problems. If he steps down now, the constitution can likely not be amended before the next elections. That means they will have elections without true representation of the people.

I understand that it will emotionally be satisfying to people if Mubarak is forced to step down. I am not so sure it is a good idea. Not because I like what he stands for, but it looks like he may be needed for the establishment of a real democracy. Personally I think the best scenario will be if he gets out of politics, but does it over time while helping establish a true democratic system. Now the question if he is willing to move the country in this direction is the real issue.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are talking about an 82-year-old autocrat, who has used all possible means for the last 32 years - vote-rigging, torture, murder and other forms of oppression - to hold on to power.He has to go. He is the problem, not the solution.
Maybe then we can get back to talking about antiquities.
So b----- off , Hosni, and take Zahi with you (otherwise he'll never go)!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granite wrote:
We are talking about an 82-year-old autocrat, who has used all possible means for the last 32 years - vote-rigging, torture, murder and other forms of oppression - to hold on to power.He has to go. He is the problem, not the solution.

The part about his ruthlessness was never in question. We will just have to see if he can help change the constitution before he goes.
And I never said he was the solution, just that he could play a role in bringing the solution about much more efficiently and quickly if they could get him to cooperate (big if)
And if not, they will have to figure out how to get over that hurdle. The real answer may just be that all of this will take time.

Granite wrote:
Maybe then we can get back to talking about antiquities.
So b----- off , Hosni, and take Zahi with you (otherwise he'll never go)!

Very Happy Ah yes, back to Ancient Egypt.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been lurking, sorry Confused

The point I would like to add is that this whole crisis is about people, not artifacts, and honestly it is not about politics

What is happening in Egypt is truly a wonderful thing, if only it can resolve to reason sooner rather than later

The people of egypt, at least the greatest majority, are calling for FREEDOM from an oppressive regime, they are demanding constitutional change NOW, and they are trying their very best to use their power of voice and protest to bring this about - let the people write their own new adopted constitution, to their will

Forget all this rubbish about Mubarak needing to oversee a change, ignore all the junk we hear on the news, this is about people, and these people have made their majority known

The transition is simple... Mubarak should go now, this is not an opinion, this is a statement of requirement. If he fails to go, if he sits out the protestors, things will not change, slowly one step at a time, the old guard will regain their strength and perhaps it will be another president, perhaps a sham of democracy, but the time is NOW! He MUST go!

Imagine if you were one of these brave souls in the square, you, your friends, your family and a whole multitude have been making yourselves known over the last number of days, you are known as anti-government...

What is Mubarak's regime known for, when it come to those who stood against him? - these are truly brave people, they have a death sentence hanging over them if there is no change

We (most of us) come from democratic nations, we may not like everything our representatives do, say or stand for, but we do have the opportunity to vote freely - THIS IS ALL THE PEOPLE ARE DEMANDING - Self Representation - This is a basic human right

And they are right to DEMAND, you cannot ask a dictator, autocrat or king for concession, it is time for you and I to INSIST our governments start to reflect our will and have them SHOUTING FROM THE ROOFTOPS for Mubarak to go now - forget the political nonsense, excuses and fearmongers, this is about the people of Egypt and they deserve our FULL support

I would like to end my soapbox episode with one of my favorite quotes...

'Tis said that Kings can do no wrong --
Their murderous deeds deny it,
And, since from us their power is sprung,
We have a right to try it.
Now each true patriot's song shall be: -
'Welcome Death or Libertie!'


Robert Burns, b.1759 d.1796
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
Mubarak should go now, this is not an opinion, this is a statement of requirement.

Nope, definitely an opinion. Declaring it not to be an opinion does not make that a truth.

I understand your concerns and I do share your misgivings about even giving HM any power as history does suggest that he would abuse it.

But the constitution is the biggest hurdle at this point and without it the following will not be achieved:

freeTinker wrote:
We (most of us) come from democratic nations, we may not like everything our representatives do, say or stand for, but we do have the opportunity to vote freely - THIS IS ALL THE PEOPLE ARE DEMANDING - Self Representation - This is a basic human right

And yes, getting true representation and democracy is what I would hope for as an outcome for the Egyptian people. But from what I have read, having the regime as is step down and holding elections would deprive many of the representation they seek. Since that is the opposite of what people are demanding that seems like a really bad idea as well.

So just having someone step down and declaring that the solution is rather short sighted? It's always tempting to do the starry-eyed thing and declare ones wishes to be the only solution. Who steps in? You really trust Suleyman any more? I don't. I find that whole approach rather simplistic. To pretend there are easy answers and "simple truths" really makes me less likely to take any such argument serious. This is anything but simple and looks horribly complicated.

The real problem is what to do next. The best alternative I have heard so far is an interim care taker government who is charged with writing the new constitution that will create the representation needed. But the problem may be weather that is legal? Making blanket statements without understanding the full legal ramifications is somewhat less than useful I think.

freeTinker wrote:
I would like to end my soapbox episode


Very Happy Hey we are all entitled to our opinions and an occasional soap box.
I think it is clear that all here do wish the best for the Egyptian people. We share that as the goal. How to get there? Not clear.

Ultimately what we think is of fairly little importance. This is up to the Egyptian People. I care of course at the level of being a fellow human being, and wishing a positive outcome. But it is not up to outsiders to tell them what to do. I hope the opposition leaders can craft a viable roadmap for the foreseeable future.
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