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Wall reliefs at Karnak with shades/tent coverings on columns

 
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Ignacio
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:22 am    Post subject: Wall reliefs at Karnak with shades/tent coverings on columns Reply with quote

Hello. In a book from the 1860s (Semper, Der Stil) I am reading that at the 'forecourt' (Vorhof) in Karnak there are some wall reliefs or paintings showing columns much like the 'freestanding' columns defining the passage linking the two courts, in which very similar columns are shown with some sort of structure at the top that makes it obvious that at some point they were spanned by shades/tent coverings, or maybe the pictures show the tents (I had thought that passage was a hypostyle room, so I may be misinterpreting something; or maybe they used the coverings while the stone roof was not yet ready). I am needing a photo or drawing of those wall paintings.

In some other book (Viollet-le-Duc, Histoire de l'habitation humaine) I have seen a drawing of something like that, but I am not sure if this (obviously modern) drawing was somehow based on the wall paintings mentioned above:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4dctVZzrxng/TeXLILyyIJI/AAAAAAAAAZs/3rj5odkcFOQ/pesp-red.jpg

I'll start going over Lepsius but I don't really know what I am looking for. If anybody has any remote clue, please let me know. Thanks in advance in any case.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Wall reliefs at Karnak with shades/tent coverings on col Reply with quote

Ignacio wrote:
Hello. In a book from the 1860s (Semper, Der Stil) I am reading that at the 'forecourt' (Vorhof) in Karnak there are some wall reliefs or paintings showing columns much like the 'freestanding' columns defining the passage linking the two courts, in which very similar columns are shown with some sort of structure at the top that makes it obvious that at some point they were spanned by shades/tent coverings, or maybe the pictures show the tents (I had thought that passage was a hypostyle room, so I may be misinterpreting something; or maybe they used the coverings while the stone roof was not yet ready). I am needing a photo or drawing of those wall paintings.

In some other book (Viollet-le-Duc, Histoire de l'habitation humaine) I have seen a drawing of something like that, but I am not sure if this (obviously modern) drawing was somehow based on the wall paintings mentioned above:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4dctVZzrxng/TeXLILyyIJI/AAAAAAAAAZs/3rj5odkcFOQ/pesp-red.jpg

I'll start going over Lepsius but I don't really know what I am looking for. If anybody has any remote clue, please let me know. Thanks in advance in any case.


Interesting. Digital Karnak is a great resource. I always start there when researching Karnak.

http://dlib.etc.ucla.edu/projects/Karnak/feature/HypostyleHall

I have never seen drawings like the one you mention. Certainly Seti and Ramesses II were of course the builders of the Hypostyle Hall. We have the following from Digital Karnak:
[url]
http://dlib.etc.ucla.edu/projects/Karnak/resource/HypostyleHall/1931[/url]

This shows the Hypostyle Hall with stone roof:
Quote:

The model of the hall and its columns were based on the drawings of: Carlotti (1995: pl. V, XXIX-XXX), the axial drawings of hall by Golvin (1987:203), and the axial drawings of the roof and clerestory by Clarke and Engelbach (1990:fig. 303).


Perhaps looking at the drawings by Carlotti, Golvan, Clarke and Engelbach may be of use to you.

Stuart
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kevininabydos
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but these are someones interpretation of that they think it looked like just as the awning drawing.
What actual evidence is there that the Hypostyle hall was roofed over in stone? These slabs of stone would have to have been colossal to span the gap and very thick to support their own weight, and I have no where seen or heard of any such stones being found, (you would have thought even one would have been found, albeit in fragments!)
I have always doubted the "theory" of a roofed over hypostyle hall.
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Ignacio
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[My initial message is rather messed up, and I can't edit it, so just in case: what Semper is saying is that apparently in walls paintings/reliefs in Karnak itself there are pictures showing tents over similar freestanding columns. That is, there is evidence that at least at some point they were used like they show in the drawing by Viollet le Duc. And those 'evidence pictures' are what I am looking for, unsuccessfully so far.]
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevininabydos wrote:
Yes, but these are someones interpretation of that they think it looked like just as the awning drawing.
What actual evidence is there that the Hypostyle hall was roofed over in stone? These slabs of stone would have to have been colossal to span the gap and very thick to support their own weight, and I have no where seen or heard of any such stones being found, (you would have thought even one would have been found, albeit in fragments!)
I have always doubted the "theory" of a roofed over hypostyle hall.


I would always contact those who are working on the project with such questions. I am sure they will be more than happy to go into such details with anyone who has an interest.

Other than digital Karnak, we also have [url http://cassian.memphis.edu/history/hypostyle/ [/url]

This team are contactable by email. As they are the guys working on the Hypostyle Hall, it would make sence contacting them also.

I have not seen the awning pictures discussed by you Ignacio, but those who work at karnak will point you in the right direction.

These are just 2 projects within Karnak. There will also be others who will be very familiar with what is and isn't on the walls.

Stuart
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignacio wrote:
... that apparently in walls paintings/reliefs in Karnak itself there are pictures showing tents over similar freestanding columns. That is, there is evidence that at least at some point they were used like they show in the drawing by Viollet le Duc. And those 'evidence pictures' are what I am looking for, unsuccessfully so far.

See Bertha Porter / Rosalind L. B. Moss : Topographical Bibliography of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic Texts, Statues, Reliefs, and Paintings - Volume II : Theban Temples. - Oxford : University Press, 1972 [2nd ed. 1994]. - ISBN : 0900416181. - 586 p.

But without a more detailed location information you should bring a little time and patience for the search in " P & M " for a specific scene in Karnak. They are listed here on over 300 pages...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry G. Fischer : Sunshades of the Marketplace. - New York : Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1972 & 1977. - Metropolitan Museum Journal - MMJ - 6. - pp. 151 - 156. - ISSN : 0077-8958. - Ancient Egypt in the Metropolitan Museum Journal - 1-11 (1968-1976). - pp. 63 - 68, 182 - 183. - ISBN : 0-87099-159-0

is the only article I could find that deals, at least, vague with the subject. However, it is more about portable models, umbrellas, awnings.

Greetings, Lutz.
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