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About Exodus.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Iker"]
Quote:
SidneyF: The commemoration of an exodus predates the diaspora. The Samaritans are a sect that were never removed to Babylon or to Persia--but the biggest holy day of the year for them is the Passover.


Quote:
Evidence that what we have now in the bible as the passover and exodus was celebrated exactly the same way prior to the captivity? Can you show that the Samaritan texts predate the Babylonian captivity using scholarly sources? What evidence do they have to support their viewpoint? According to Wikipedia:
"Modern scholarship connects the formation of the Samaritan community and their Pentateuch as a distinctive sectarian textual tradition with events which followed the Babylonian Captivity.[8]"


People can follow their traditions even while completely illiterate, so it really doesn't matter. The Samaritan Passover is a communal celebration while, among the Jews, it is observed within the family unit. On Mount Gerizim, the Samaritans use no text whatsoever in the observation, even though all have been perfectly literate for a long time. The Jews read from the Hagaddah. No Samaritan would ever agree that they began the Passover observation just because the Jews returned from Babylon! Can you prove that they did? I'm afraid no written source is going to help there.

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Is it not the case that those who believe the Hyksos episode is related to Exodus seem to be tacitly admitting that the Exodus account is not history but sacred drama because it reverses what historical evidence we may have? i.e that it was Egyptians who were oppressed by Hyksos (who bit the hand that fed them) and far from being the downtrodden slaves they were people who took what didn't belong to them and imposed themselves on the Egyptians.


First of all, there are no such people as the "Hyksos". That is a term from Manetho, who was attempting to convey "shepherd rulers". It's doubtful that they can always have been the same people. There is the 15th Dynasty and the 16th, for example. Once again, what we call history began with the Greeks. I wouldn't even call it "sacred drama". I would just call it "fictionalization" of a watershed event--or possibly even more than one. How can it be otherwise? Was there someone there with a tape-recorder logging everything Moses said to the pharaoh? Obviously folklore had to be involved and none of the details, whether true or fabricated, take away from the fact that the Jews were in Egypt. The Egyptian story, "The Taking of Joppa" is an example of a fictionalized account. But there really was a general of Thutmose III named Djehuty and Joppa was taken.
However, if the people of Joppa had been given to writing stories--what do you think would have been their version? There is not now and never was a completely objective history where all persons involved would have the exact same version of any event or series of events, especially opponents in war. History is always imbued with national viewpoint.

Quote:
It also means accepting that whilst indeed the Hyksos had strong monolatric tendencies and worshipped a deity that had similar attributes to one the Egyptians knew well it was under a different name from that given in later biblical texts and, in my opinion, that has led to some believing scholars to shy away from making direct connections between the Hyksos and the Israelites.


Again--which Hyksos? How did their beliefs differ? When Moses speaks to the pharaoh, he doesn't say "Israelites", he says "Hebrews". Obviously, then, there was a tradition by the time the Book of Exodus was written that the Children of Israel were called something else by the Egyptians. I say "Apiru", those very people who conquered the Canaanite cities at the time of Akhenaten.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention "the bricks without straw". In the past, I have wondered about that and why the king would want bricks without straw because the buildings belonged to him and he ought to have wanted the optimal materials. But, lately, on reading Barry Kemp's book about El Amarna, I realized there was one place in Egypt where the bricks really did not have any straw--and that was Akhetaten. Just thought I'd mention it.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another example of the Egyptians writing history in the form of a story is "The Quarrel of Apophis and Seqenenre".

http://ancient-egypt.org/index.html

A pity the text does not continue! Complete fiction, BTW, does not seem to have been a common genre in ancient Egypt. The only tale I can think of that seems mostly fiction is "Shipwrecked Sailor".


It is these stories that place the exodus tale into context for me. The basic story is hardly different from an Egyptian one and has all the same elements--a pharaoh, a hero, some "magicians" catastrophic events attributed not to the hand of the gods but to the God of the Israelites, instead.

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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strangely, all the links for this site are the same "index" one, but if you want to read the tale of Apophis and Seqenenre, just click on "Literature" and it will get you there in a few steps.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
More annoying is it, when people just distract from that by trying to prove convulsively historical authenticity. Why is that? Is their own faith not so strong that it needs a proof?


It's not from a lack of faith, Lutz. It would be hoped that one's beliefs would cross over into all aspects of one's life.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Unas wrote:
... It's too bad I can't read German--the discussion group you link on your posts looks like an interesting place! I let the Google Translator give it a go but it didn't work. Laughing

Welcome to my English-Forum-Life ... Cool

Greetings, Lutz.


Laughing

This reminds me of a particular rare book on Saqqara that I've been searching for...only problem is, the book is in French. I don't know exactly what I'm going to do with it if I ever do find it! Laughing
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Iker
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I would just call it "fictionalization" of a watershed event--or possibly even more than one. How can it be otherwise? Was there someone there with a tape-recorder logging everything Moses said to the pharaoh?

Fair enough, but for many Christians there was no need for anyone with a tape recorder because the text of the Exodus isn't a human creation. For them it's literal history and it shapes their view of the Middle East today. They would also likely take offence at the placing of Egyptian stories which make no claim to be divine revelation on a par with their book.

It crossed my mind that the well known passage in Herodotus was perhaps a fuzzy and distorted memory of the Amarna period, neglect of temples, the families marriages and Barry Kemp's description of the harsh working conditions based on the examination of skeletal remains.
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Iker
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another example of the Egyptians writing history in the form of a story is "The Quarrel of Apophis and Seqenenre".


Granted some modern scholars treat it as fiction (e.g Donald Redford, p. 108 fn. 54, p. 125) but by no means all (John A. Wilson, Culture of Egypt, p. 160) I can think of biting sarcasm and ritual humiliation being used by 20th century leaders that John Wilson would certainly have remembered. Even so Donald Redford notes that "the Hyksos regime had nonetheless doomed itself by its very nature and its reliance on force to be a pariah, on no surer footing than a Mari or an Isin".(p. 125, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times). I would be inclined to believe it because it fits in with what we know about them but I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Iker"]
Quote:
I would just call it "fictionalization" of a watershed event--or possibly even more than one. How can it be otherwise? Was there someone there with a tape-recorder logging everything Moses said to the pharaoh?


Quote:
Fair enough, but for many Christians there was no need for anyone with a tape recorder because the text of the Exodus isn't a human creation. For them it's literal history and it shapes their view of the Middle East today. They would also likely take offence at the placing of Egyptian stories which make no claim to be divine revelation on a par with their book.


To be precise, the Hebrew Bible was never intended to be a book for Christians. One adopted it--and invested it with "divinity". Most Jews of today, except for the most orthodox ones, don't believe that the Pentateuch and related books are anything other than a human creation. Some of it is history and some myth and legend. It is also a handbook when it comes to Biblical archaeology.

I, myself, am not a person of faith. I like things to be logical and if I believe in anything it is science. That there was an exodus, more than one, makes sense to me on every level, all based on various evidence. Faith, for me, has nothing to do with it at all. BTW--back to the Samaritans. Their Passover rituals are all about sacrifice, the sacrificial lamb, just as in antiquity. For the Jews, upon the destruction of the second temple, the making of sacrifices terminated.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Iker"]
Quote:
Another example of the Egyptians writing history in the form of a story is "The Quarrel of Apophis and Seqenenre".


Quote:
Granted some modern scholars treat it as fiction (e.g Donald Redford, p. 108 fn. 54, p. 125) but by no means all (John A. Wilson, Culture of Egypt, p. 160) I can think of biting sarcasm and ritual humiliation being used by 20th century leaders that John Wilson would certainly have remembered. Even so Donald Redford notes that "the Hyksos regime had nonetheless doomed itself by its very nature and its reliance on force to be a pariah, on no surer footing than a Mari or an Isin".(p. 125, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times). I would be inclined to believe it because it fits in with what we know about them but I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.


It's not fiction! Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. It can't be fiction because there really was an Apophis [Apepi] and there really was a Seqenenre. What it is is a "fictionalization", written in the time of the 19th Dynasty, long after the events. Papyri are dated by linguistic forms and the type of hieratic script in vogue.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:

To be precise, the Hebrew Bible was never intended to be a book for Christians. One adopted it--and invested it with "divinity". Most Jews of today, except for the most orthodox ones, don't believe that the Pentateuch and related books are anything other than a human creation. Some of it is history and some myth and legend. It is also a handbook when it comes to Biblical archaeology.


I think that sometimes confusion can arise if a person doesn't consider the Bible has a whole; this can have an effect on how it comes across to you.
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Iker
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I, myself, am not a person of faith. I like things to be logical and if I believe in anything it is science. That there was an exodus

Then why use such a loaded word "exodus" if you are such a rationalist not subject to bias?. If Vulcan like I strip away everything in scriptures that isn't scientifically or historically plausible should I continue to use the word "exodus" at the end of it all? I think not for do so otherwise is lend credence to biblical literalists.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Iker"]
Quote:
I, myself, am not a person of faith. I like things to be logical and if I believe in anything it is science. That there was an exodus


Quote:
Then why use such a loaded word "exodus" if you are such a rationalist not subject to bias?.


As far as I know, guns are loaded and not words. 'Exodus', 'expulsion'--whichever--means people leave. Are you saying that, unless I swallow everything in the Bible, hook, line and sinker, that I am 'subject to bias'? It seems to me, if you are so concerned about that, you are addressing your remarks to the wrong person. I am not the one in this thread who claimed that there was no truth to the "loaded word" whatsoever.

Quote:
If Vulcan like I strip away everything in scriptures that isn't scientifically or historically plausible should I continue to use the word "exodus" at the end of it all? I think not for do so otherwise is lend credence to biblical literalists.


I couldn't care less.
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Iker
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF,
That guns have been loaded, people killed, through a fundamentalist intepretation of the Book of Exodus isn't the point I was making. If a person is using the Hyksos to support historicity of the Book of Exodus then the appropriate word is expulsion or eviction since they were forced to leave. The word "exodus" (in it's biblical context) means something else and inverts what we know about the Hyksos period.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iker wrote:
SidneyF,
That guns have been loaded, people killed, through a fundamentalist intepretation of the Book of Exodus isn't the point I was making. If a person is using the Hyksos to support historicity of the Book of Exodus then the appropriate word is expulsion or eviction since they were forced to leave. The word "exodus" (in it's biblical context) means something else and inverts what we know about the Hyksos period.


Which "Hyksos" period? Seqenenre, Kamose and Ahmose "battled" the Hyksos and something of how that was done has been described. But nothing like that was spoken of in the Speos Artemidos text, no battle and no siege. "Banish" is the ambiguous term that was used there by one of the biggest spin-doctors in ancient Egyptian history--Hatshepsut. Without any more details, how can anyone know exactly what she meant? However, I don't think anyone is using "Hyksos" to support the historicity of the Book of Exodus. I don't think it's possible or even that, when this book was written, anyone knew the details any longer. All this Speos inscription shows is that people left Avaris at various times---and sometimes the circumstances are not so clear. "Exodus" means "go out". If you think it was so voluntary on the part of the Hebrews, then why did they need permission?

For me, personally, the Biblical story--while nice as a story--makes no sense. For one thing, lacking any sort of popular media or means of communication, could all the persons of foreign background in Egypt be organized--unless they were in one place--such as Avaris? Even Manetho seemed to think this was true because all his mentions of the "shepherds" or "the polluted ones" are connected to Avaris. And would all even want to go? This Biblical account makes it seem like all persons who were not ethnic Egyptians were so oppressed that they wanted to leave and required a deliverer, but the Jews [once there actually were Jews] kept returning. They returned under Alexander and the Ptolemies. They were there in the Middle Ages and returned in the 15th Century--remaining until the 20th. Those Jews forced to leave under the Nasser regime still miss their life in Egypt.


But Manetho does say that the proto-Jews, the shepherds, were at first released by negotiation.
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