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Who do you think defaced Hatshepsut's monuments?
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Montu
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:32 pm    Post subject: Who do you think defaced Hatshepsut's monuments? Reply with quote

Who do you think did it? Tuthmosis III or Amenhotep II? Or both. I'm stongly inclined towards Amenhotep
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me too. The persecutions took place so very late in Thutmose III's reign that it is perfectly possible that they actually date to Amenhotep II's. The latter was young and perhaps insecure when he succeeded. Maybe he made an object lesson of Hat to discourage anybody from trying to take advantage of his youth.
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herper
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it was started by Thutmose and finished by Amenhotep. Father securing the sons position, then the son solidifying his position
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally think it was Tuthmosis III. The defacing seems to have started in about year 46 or so of his reign. I think Amenhotep was about 18 when he came to the throne, so he was about 10 or so when they think this started.
I think 10 is a bit young to come up with something like this?

And if the theory is that this happened with an eye on the succession, then doing this kind of persecution seems a bit late when you are already on the throne. If it is done by a father trying to safeguard the future of his son however, then that makes a bit more sense to me.

Very Happy I'm curious what others think!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think that hatshepsut's memory as a queen was more desirable than her memory as a woman who usurped a king's throne. now, she was royal by blood, aunt and step mother of thutmose III, but she was technically the best person for regent....

i think thutmose III was worried someone would do the same thing to amenhotep II or another future king......and maybe that king would never get a chance to rule. maybe there was some lady in thutmose's family that tried something, or maybe he was just thinking of his son, he may have been in poor health for most of amenhotep II's life.

it is clearly not a hatred of women in power. queens ruled as regent frequently, and there are cases of queen regnants, even if we think they are mythical. it is simply an attempt to stop a woman from assuming power from a male king.

this theory is well explained by the fact that amenhotep II had no principal wife, and why thutmose IV may had to play dirty for the throne, if he had no better claim than any siblings.

but i certainly think it was a warning to any woman who thought she could take a kings and therefore a man's place. and i think amenhotep II might have completed some defacement.
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Montu
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I personally think it was Tuthmosis III. The defacing seems to have started in about year 46 or so of his reign. I think Amenhotep was about 18 when he came to the throne, so he was about 10 or so when they think this started.
I think 10 is a bit young to come up with something like this?

And if the theory is that this happened with an eye on the succession, then doing this kind of persecution seems a bit late when you are already on the throne. If it is done by a father trying to safeguard the future of his son however, then that makes a bit more sense to me.

Very Happy I'm curious what others think!


thats certainly the best reasoning I've heard for it being Tuthmosis it would certainly make sense that he might have been worried that a vizier may have fancied his/her chances of doing a hapshetsut and ruling themseleves instead of handing power over to his young son
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Montu
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

although wasn't there something about Amenhotep not recording the names of his wives or not bothering to name a '1st' wife or something? - if so wouldn't that suggest he may have been a bit of a misogynist and had a bone to pick with women in general and Hapshetut in particular?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montu wrote:
although wasn't there something about Amenhotep not recording the names of his wives or not bothering to name a '1st' wife or something? - if so wouldn't that suggest he may have been a bit of a misogynist and had a bone to pick with women in general and Hapshetut in particular?


Yes, Amenhotep II is accompanied by his mother Merytre (-Hatshepsut) in some scenes. It seems Merytre-Hatshepsut was the only royal woman with the title "Great Royal wife". Or at least it's the only one we know of. Tuthmosis IV is his son by Tiaa, but she was never shown/mentioned as the great royal wife during her husband's reign.

In an article in KMT Dennis Forbes does mention that there is a partial inscription showing a great royal wife whose name starts with 'Sit'. He suggests there was a woman named Sitamen who was his great royal wife.

There is the queen with a flywisk now in the Petrie museum and my impression is that this is the woman Forbes is talking about.


This woman is thought by some to date to the reign of Amenhotep II, but it's not clear to me if she is thought to be a wife or a daughter in that case.
The Petrie online catalogue shows some information for UC14373:

Sandstone block fragment from the temple of king Amenhotep II on the west bank at Thebes, with raised relief, preserved area with head of Princess Sitamen, daughter of Amenhotep III, wearing vulture headdress and holding floral sceptre, facing right, and above part of her name in a cartouche

Place: Thebes (Egypt R - Z / Egypt)


So some think this may depict the daughter-wife of Amenhotep III. Not sure why she would be depicted in the temple of Amenhotep II though?
I think the vulture headdress indicates this is a royal wife?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i havn't seen a princess wear the vulture crown anneke. so i should think she is a queen, specially holding the lily sceptre. but then again she could be a goddess. or is it possible it's his moter and the 'sit' is a reference to a title maybe?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

could it be queen sitiah? or is she thought to have died before amenhotep II's time? maybe like a scene where the king makes offering to his father and or his queens?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
could it be queen sitiah? or is she thought to have died before amenhotep II's time? maybe like a scene where the king makes offering to his father and or his queens?


That's an interesting idea, but Queen Sitiah died somewhere around year 20-25 of Tuthmosis III's reign. It's possible that Amenhotep II was honoring the wife of his father, but I would think that his mother Merytre-Hatshepsut - who was alive during Amenhotep II's reign - might be less than pleased by this.

I do knot know what kind of scene this comes from. I have not seen a discussion of the larger context. The identification by Forbes of this lady as a Queen of Amenhotep II is rather interesting. I wonder if she could be a candidate for the mother of Queen Iaret who was a King's daughter and married Tuthmosis IV?

LOL But speculating about the offspring of a Queen we do not even know existed might just be going a tad too far Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key to the date of the persecution seems to be the defacing of some of the inscriptions on the Chapel Rouge. The Chapel Rouge was mentioned in the Texte de la Juenesse in which Thutmose III described his miraculous ascension to the throne. This text also mentions the Hall of Annals. The last date on the Hall of Annals is year 42. That seems to indicate that the Chapel Rouge was still standing in year 42 and perhaps later.

Thutmose III replaced the Chapel Rouge with his own Barque shrine dated year 46. The blocks Of the Chapel Rouge were apparently only defaced where accessible in the stack where they lay waiting to be reused. The question is, how long did the Chapel Rouge blocks lay Around waiting to be defaced? I don't think anyone knOws. I do think they'd be a pretty low Priority. It's also possible that Thutmose III's replacement of the Chapel Rouge was just a royal remodeling project and had nothing to do with the proscription of Hatshepsut.


Another issue is the construction of Thutmose III's temple Deir el Bahri temple at around the same time. Was this related to the proscription or was that a coincidence? Does anyone know whether any defaced Hatshepsut blocks were used in the construction of the Thutmose III temple?

I do think that the bulk of the evidence points to Thutmose III who had motive and opportunity but it is possible that his son did it after his death to set the record straight and set things up for his successors not to mention insuring that the monumental record accorded with Maat.

I do think the
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:40 am    Post subject: Defacing of Hatshepsut Reply with quote

From what i know... Tuthmosis lll Defaced Queen Hatshepsuts face from Statues and artifacts because of the fact that she went against all conventions of her time, and succeded the throne as Pharoah though she was a woman, when Tuthmosis lll was actually ment to suceed the throne from Tuthmosis ll! He may have done this to send a messgae or out of anger! but there are Smile multiple reasons why and who did this! Smile
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hatshepsut and Thutmose III have conventionally been depicted as bitter rivals with the former usurping the latter's throne but thinking on that topic has changed.

We must face the fact that Hatshepsut and Thutmose III reigned together for some twenty odd years and there was a gradual shift of emphasis from Hat as the senior partner to Thutmose as the comming man. It is also worth mentioning that the 'Napoleon of Egypt's' earliest campaigns took place under his aunt and a wise monarch does not trust her rival with the army!

We will probably never know just what caused Hatshepsut to take the drastic step of assuming a full co-regency with her nephew-stepson but it seems likely that there was rather more to it than sheer naked ambition on her part. The administrative continuity from Thutmose I's reign to his grandson Thutmose III's is impressive evidence for a peaceful succession. It would appear that the male elite that had served Hatshepsut's father and husband-brother aquiesed to her assumption of the Pharaonic crown. thus whatever her reasons they would seem to have been ones with which those concerned for Egypt and the dynasty agreed.

We must also remember that a co-regency was perfectly normal to the AEs. Literally the only oddity involved was the senior co-regent's sex. Thutmose III quite literally grew up with the situation; to him it also seemed normal, natural and necessary. He had not been deprived of his crown, he was still pharaoh and had every expectation of enjoying a sole reign in due course - which he did.

It was only towards the end of that sole reign that he began to worry a little about the precedent Aunt Hat had set. The fact that Thutmose had several daughters and only one male heir who was significantly younger may have troubled him. Granted Aunt Hat had had damn good reason for what she'd done. He had no quarrel with that, she'd saved his throne for him. But if his daughters were considered as good potential heirs as his son there might be a real succession crisis when he, Thutmose III, joined his fathers.

After so long a time anger or personal hatred can have played no role in his decision to rewrite history in a more acceptable fashion. It must have been a simple matter of policy. There is no reason to believe he disturbed his aunt's burial and monuments showing her as a queen were left untouched.

He clearly was not trying to destroy her afterlife, simply adjust her legacy to a more politically acceptable form. He may have comforted himself with the thought that Aunt Hat of all people who understand why and forgive him.

But there are some indications of genuine hostility in some of the defacements -that's why I wonder if maybe Amenhotep II might not have been responsible for much if not all of it. He seems to have been a hotter tempered character than his father and maybe he chose to regard Hatshepsut as an actual usurper rather than just a politically inconvenient co-regent?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
But there are some indications of genuine hostility in some of the defacements -that's why I wonder if maybe Amenhotep II might not have been responsible for much if not all of it. He seems to have been a hotter tempered character than his father and maybe he chose to regard Hatshepsut as an actual usurper rather than just a politically inconvenient co-regent?


I'm curious what made you think that there was hostility involved. The one thing that may point in that direction was that instead of simply usurping some of the scenes by changing the cartouches from Hat to some other ruler, some of the scenes show that images were chiseled away.

Are there other signs you are thinking of, or is that the main one?

I have wondered about the need to remove the images of the person as well. Just curious Very Happy
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