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Pre-dynastic kings
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Psusennes III
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:26 pm    Post subject: Pre-dynastic kings Reply with quote

I'm looking for the names of 15 pre-dynastic kings from which the names were discovered in 1996 or earlier by Dreyer from the German Institute in Cairo. I read this in an article from KNACK magazine from 17/04/1996

Quote:
(translated to English forgive me if there are errors in it)
...Dreyer found for Dynasty 0 a serie of more than 15 rulers. The oldest kings were named "finger-snail", "Elephant", "Stork" and "Scorpion"...

...king "Falcon"... ...King Narmer (own comment = the furious "Catfish")...
...the one who completed the union Hor-Aha (=the fighting "falcon")...


This is the only text I have ever read about these kings no other book or article mentions them and websites are not very keen on giving this information, although I'm still looking.

here's one related to the subject: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Narmer.html

so we have already

    Fingersnail (dyn 0)
    Elephant (dyn 0)
    Stork (dyn 0)
    Falcon (dyn 0)
    Scorpion (dyn 0)
    (furious) Catfish (dyn 0) Narmer
    (fighting) Falcon (dyn 1) Hor-Aha
    Serpent (or Cobra) (dyn 1) Djet


All animal names does anyone know any more of the list?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a good discussion of it here:
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/francescoraf/hesyra/dynasty00.htm

A quote:
The complete (still provisional) list and discussion of Dreyer (Umm el Qaab I, 1998 p. 173-180) includes the following probable royal names or rulers' indicators (loc. cit. p. 178; also see TABLE 1, below) :
Oryx, Shell, Fish, Elephant, Bull, Stork, Canid (?), Cattle-head standard, Scorpion I, Falcon I, Min standard + plant, ?, Falcon II (?), Lion, Double Falcon, Irj-Hor, Ka, Scorpion II, Narmer. More local rulers (mostly of dynasty 0, Naqada III pariod) are Nb (or R ?), Hedjw(-Hor), Pe + Elephant, Nj-Hor, Hat-Hor, Crocodile (the Subduer), Falcon + Mer (Tarkhan, also read as P.N. 'Mer Djehwty'), and Qustul L2 Pe-Hor.


The last ones (from Double Falcon on) are discussed in Dynasty 0 page;
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a list of Naqada III Thinite/Abydene rulers.
Oryx standard
Shell
Fish
Elephant
Bull
(Bucranium standard?)
Stork
Canid
Bucranium standard (^)
Scorpion I
Falcon
Min standard +plant
(Falcon II ?)
Lion  
Double Falcon
Iry-Hor (B1/2)
Ka
Scorpion II
Narmer    


There were other kings: Hedj-Hor, Hat-Hor, Ny-Hor, Pe-Hor, Ny-Neith, Djehwty-Mer/Falcon-chisel, Crocodile and few others.
Their serekhs have only been found elsewhere.

Are these really meant to be Kings, or are they chieftains of smaller areas?
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Psusennes III
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is great information you've found there, can you imagine I've been looking for this more than a week and the only thing I could find was that link I posted. Furthermore I did find a lot of sites with just references with Dreyer's name. So you've made me very happy with this information.

Reading the article must probably wait untill tommorrow evening because it's getting late already and duty calls tommorrow morning.

But while reading these lists I thought about something else, most probably nothing to do with this but I do want to share it.
I thought about these fabels we read in primary school: "Long long time ago, when animals still ruled the world..." King Lion...
Funny though that in Egypt these fabels were once real.

Quote:
Are these really meant to be Kings, or are they chieftains of smaller areas?


Well the article speaks about "kings" and they probably were as well but they probably rules over smaller kingdoms. According to the article and Dreyer:
Quote:
the Pré-dynastic Southern Empire must have been military very powerful. Ca. 3150 b.C. the latest, Dreyer says, the violent subjection of the Delta must have started under the rule of king Falcon


thanks for the link and goodnight

Tom
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome Very Happy

That's a pretty good site anyways.
I haven't had time to read through all if it myself. I just did a very cursory reading. It is amazing how far back they are extending their knowledge of the rulers of AE.


It is interesting to see the animal names of the Kings. Combined with the animal shapes of their deities, makes you wonder if there was a ritualistic meaning behind the names. Would a mother really name their child "snake", "crocodile" or "elephant"? Seems more like a chosen name.
Maybe that statement says more about me than about them Laughing
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Seti
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Scorpion(s)? Reply with quote

Idea
Anneke: for what little it's worth, coming from a relative novice like me, I agree that Francesco Raffaele's website seems excellent (although, inevitably, some of the details will be controversial to other Egyptologists).
He and some other respectable looking sites appear convinced that there were 2 distinct King Scorpions. Any additional authorities for this point of view would be appreciated e.g. Dreyer himself?
I believe there are those who seem certain that I and II are the same individual. If this is the case, could you please let me have some authoritative references for this theory (preferably on the internet)?
Thanks.
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Amun
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These were the kings of Upper Egypt...
_____________________________________________________________

And there were also the kings of Lower Egypt :

Tiu, Thesh, Hsekiu, Wazner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pharaohs

What do we know about them? Idea
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tiu, Thesh, Hsekiu, Wazner


I've done a fair amount of reading about predynastic Egypt and have never heard of these names. The Palermo Stone is often mysterious and raises more questions than it answers, especially considering it was inscribed late in Dynasty 5, hundreds of years after predynastic times.

We know for certain that Lower Egypt had little social stratification until about the Naqada III period, and the emerging hierarchy was most likely a result of Upper Egyptian conquests and cultural diffusion. Items of prestige have been found in a few Delta graves that date to shortly before state formation but I'm unaware of any archaeological evidence that presents these Lower Egyptian names to us.

I would guess that at best Tiu, Thesh, and the others were chieftains of Lower Egyptian tribes and not what we would call kings or even proto-kings.

LOL Wazner sounds very modern, like some German college professor. Laughing
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Re: Scorpion(s)? Reply with quote

Seti wrote:

Anneke: for what little it's worth, coming from a relative novice like me, I agree that Francesco Raffaele's website seems excellent (although, inevitably, some of the details will be controversial to other Egyptologists).
He and some other respectable looking sites appear convinced that there were 2 distinct King Scorpions. Any additional authorities for this point of view would be appreciated e.g. Dreyer himself?
I believe there are those who seem certain that I and II are the same individual. If this is the case, could you please let me have some authoritative references for this theory (preferably on the internet)?
Thanks.


Sorry Seti, I can't think of any other resources. That area is not really something I have read that much about.

Quote:
Tiu, Thesh, Hsekiu, Wazner


In Breasted (Ancient Records) a short list of these predynastic Kings of Lower Egypt is mentioned:
[...]pu (-pw)
Seka (Sk> )
Khayu (Kh>-yw)
Teyew ( Tyw)
Tjesh (TjSh)
Neheb ( N-hb)
Wadenedj (Wadj-<ndj)
Mekh (Mkh)
[...]a (..->)

(page 57 in Ancient Records I by Breasted)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In Breasted (Ancient Records) a short list of these predynastic Kings of Lower Egypt is mentioned:


Ahh, I see. Thanks, anneke. Smile

That's one book I don't own. Isn't it shameful? I'm a docent at the Oriental Institute and I don't think I've ever bought anything written by Breasted. Anxious
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In Breasted (Ancient Records) a short list of these predynastic Kings of Lower Egypt is mentioned:

Quote:
That's one book I don't own. Isn't it shameful?
I don't think I've ever bought anything written by Breasted.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Click me!
Here you go.


LOL You know what, Segereh, when you showed me that page it reminded me that I've already downloaded that stuff. I'd never gotten around to printing it out and subsequently forgot all about it. Man, my brain is slipping fast. Confused

Thanks for the reminder!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always on the lookout to help Alzheimer patients.
De nada. Twisted Evil
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
(Bucranium standard?)


What does this look like?

Reason I ask: I was at the Detroit Institute of Arts yesterday, and I saw a Pre- or Proto-dynastic "alabaster" vessel with that appeared to have a rough Horus surmounting a fairly clear serekh containing what looked to me like the 'netjer'-flag (Gardiner RCool...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
(Gardiner RCool...


Stupid smilicons... R 8...
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