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KV 21 mummies and DNA tests
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is it said that Tuya and the babies have the same mtDNA?
Was that said in that show on Nefertiti?
Most definitely we don`t have any reliable information on mtDNA at all.

Apart from that, I think nothing speaks against Tey being a member of the Akhmim family.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is it said that Tuya and the babies have the same mtDNA?
Was that said in that show on Nefertiti?
Most definitely we don`t have any reliable information on mtDNA at all.

Apart from that, I think nothing speaks against Tey being a member of the Akhmim family.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Where is it said that Tuya and the babies have the same mtDNA?
Was that said in that show on Nefertiti?

No, that was not mentioned in the show. I don't know where that came from Smile


Sothis wrote:
Apart from that, I think nothing speaks against Tey being a member of the Akhmim family.

She can be a member of the family, but it would be somewhat surprising if Tey was a female member of the Akhmin family. If so, Aye would have had to marry a cousin. Not unheard of, but not something that was considered so far I think?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the JAMA paper showed a descent from thuya to the children of tutankhamun via their mother, as he did not have the alleles from his parents.

this therefore suggests that it was mitochondrial DNA they inherited through descent from either her, or a female relative of hers. since ay is thought to be thuya's son, nefertiti's mother must be a relative of thuya also if you accept that the babies mother was ankhesenamun.

technically, tutankhamun should have the same mitochondrial DNA as his children, as both seem to descend from thuya through separate lines.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this national geographic page shows the alleles:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/09/tut-dna/tut-family-tree

it shows a collateral descent separate to the pharaohs from thuya to the babies.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the alleles show one or even two probable routes of descent from Yuya and Tuya to the babies via Amenhotep III and Nefertiti respectively but this is only the nuclear DNA.

But for all I know we cannot mix it up with mtDNA which is to be tested separately and which gives data that is entirely different from the nuclear data we have so far (just as y-chromosome data is different).
The results could follow the assumptions we currently make but there could also be a few surprises.
For instance, if Nefertiti was a descendant from Yuya rather than Tuya (or a complete outsider but this doesn`t seem to be likely) then her own, Ankhesenamun`s and the babies` mtDNA should be different from Tuya`s and Queen Tiye`s. Still one or both KV21 mummies could be Nefertiti`s and/or one of her daughter`s.

If we believe the rumours though then all the tested female mummies have the same mtDNA.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on the official report:

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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Robson, but I don`t get why you post this chart which only shows the results of the nuclear DNA testing and says nothing about the mtDNA .
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And whatever Zahi wants to think the KV55 mummy is most probably Smenkhkara NOT Akhenaten.
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Ptolemy323
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the nuclear DNA chart is interesting / useful. Is there a published mtDNA similar chart for the ladies?

P
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ptolemy323 wrote:
I think the nuclear DNA chart is interesting / useful. Is there a published mtDNA similar chart for the ladies?

P


Not yet, the work on mtDNA seems to be still in progress.
We are patiently awaiting the publication of the results Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

still waiting on the DNA results of hatshepsut and ahmose nefertari too. they said they demonstrated a match, but i suspect the same type of DNA is shared, with no real link- if there was a link, the results would have been released!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Sorry, Robson, but I don`t get why you post this chart which only shows the results of the nuclear DNA testing and says nothing about the mtDNA .


Well, the chart is interesting for what it shows and for what it suggests.

For example, KV55 & KV35YL can't be the parents of KV21A. KV55 possibly could be her father (of which more anon) but KV35YL cannot be her mother.

KV21A is tentatively identified as Ankhesenamun. The identification seems probable. There appears to be a relatively high likelihood that she's the mother of the two foetuses from KV62. No other wife is known for Tutankhamun -- at least no other wife sharing a close familial relationship.

So, if KV21A is Ankhesenamun, then the name of her mother is known. Since KV35YL isn't her mother, we know she's not Nefertiti. The reverse would also be true, I suppose.

KV21A shows descent from/shares genetic material with KV35, Amenhotep III. Some of the material she shares with him is interesting, because it's material that KV55 doesn't have. So if KV55 is Akhenaten, and if he is her father, then her mother seemingly would have to had Amenhotep III as a parent, or somehow be closely related to pass on what are presumably genes which came from somewhere in the Thutmosid line.

Nothing we currently know about Nefertiti suggests this. Her being the issue of Amenhotep III is highly improbable, from all known evidence. We can't of course, rule out that she has somehow Thutmosid blood in her background. It's possible, but not provable, with what we currently know.

The simplest explanation is a descent from Amenhotep III, which if that is so, seems to suggest that if she's Ankhesenamun, then KV55 isn't her father, and thus probably not Akhenaten.

The two foetuses from KV62 appear to show descent from Amenhotep III, but some of it is genetic material their father does not have. So it would seem that came from their mother. They also appear to show an independent descent from both Yuya and Thuya. Each of them has material which cannot have come from Tiye, because she doesn't have it. That would suggest there's some other line of descent from Yuya and Thuya which isn't represented here. They can't have derived it from their father, because he doesn't have it. Their mother also couldn't have derived it from her father (presuming she actually is Ankhesenamun), regardless of whether KV55 is or is not Akhenaten, because no child of Tiye's could inherit genetic material from her parents that she hadn't inherited from them.

Assuming that KV21A is Ankhesenamun, she and her probable children show a descent from Yuya and Thuya which can only have come from her mother. That in turn would suggest that Nefertiti was related to Tiye in some way, such as the long-held belief that she was the daughter of her brother.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
If we believe the rumours though then all the tested female mummies have the same mtDNA.
The rumours I’ve heard imply that all the mummies, male and female alike, shared the same mtDNA. Now, believing rumours is a risky business (they rise and fall too fast) but if true, then all the known dynasty was descended from the same ancient Queen or matron, probably belonging to an older generation. This is impossible to prove without any data, but it is interesting to think of Yuya’s mother as a fully Egyptian princess. His looks and name then might be part of his father’s inheritance.
Nefertum wrote:
For example, KV55 & KV35YL can't be the parents of KV21A. KV55 possibly could be her father (of which more anon) but KV35YL cannot be her mother.
Based on their nuclear DNA, KV55 and KV35YL have been postulated and accepted as the parents of Tutankhamen (KV62). Since KV55 fits the personal and mortuary characteristics of Smenkhkare, KV35YL would have to be Meritaten, his wife, who ended her life as the murdered King Neferneferuaten II (Assuming Nefertiti is taken as the First). This fallen Queen/King would then be sister, not mother, of KV21A, who fits Ankhesenamen, and this assumption is genetically appropriate.
Nefertum wrote:
KV21A shows descent from/shares genetic material with KV35, Amenhotep III. Some of the material she shares with him is interesting, because it's material that KV55 doesn't have.
You are presumably referring to alleles 16, 6 and 8. Ankhesenamen could have inherited 6 from Akhenaten but 16 and 8 must have come from Nefertiti, which is one of the reasons to assume she was Amenhotpe III’s daughter.
Nefertum wrote:
So if KV55 is Akhenaten, and if he is her father…
Oops! This sentence starts off with the wrong foot… If you assume KV55 to be Akhenaten, the measured alleles will lead you into a contradiction, thus showing the assumption to be wrong. Keeping in guard for that caveat, the rest of your derivation goes…
Nefertum wrote:
… then her mother seemingly would have to had Amenhotep III as a parent, or somehow be closely related to pass on what are presumably genes which came from somewhere in the Thutmosid line
Disregarding your reference to the Thutmosid dynastic “line” (unsupported by the alleles’ combination properties), Ankhesenamen’s mother is indeed required to have inherited alleles 16 and 6, most likely in direct daughterhood from Amenhotpe III. Other derivations are possible but very unlikely since no one else around seems to fit that father’s pattern (and nobody has proposed him). Now, allele 6 provides a different probability because it appears in both of Akhenaten’s tested daughters, thus implying that it could have been passed from Amenhotpe III to his son Akhenaten.
Nefertum wrote:
Nothing we currently know about Nefertiti suggests this. Her being the issue of Amenhotep III is highly improbable, from all known evidence.
I do not find any backing for such a strong assertion. The only supposed “evidence” that Nefertiti was not a daughter of Amenhotpe III is actually no evidence at all: she was not proclaimed officially as his daughter. This type of political-dynastic omission can be understandably explained in many different ways. If you want Nefertiti to be discarded as a child of Amenhotpe III, you need much harder stuff, such as a DNA-imposed impossibility (from one of the unpublished loci), or a plausible theory that identifies her alternative “true” father as some verifiable prince or courtesan. Ay may serve as a bodiless name in this sense, but explains nothing else. Nefertiti’s once-believed “foreign” origin is also implausible since that hypothetical foreign court would have to be so thoroughly intermixed with the Egyptian royal family to become genetically indistinguishable from it. Such prolonged interdynastic international collaboration would have left many tracks in the record, of which none has surfaced. And to believe any option of all these, you would require some good explanations as to why such a "non-royal" Nefertiti was considered a goddess in Egypt from her very birth.
Nefertum wrote:
They also appear to show an independent descent from both Yuya and Thuya. Each of them has material which cannot have come from Tiye, because she doesn't have it.
This line of reasoning, while considered acceptable some time ago, has now been stretched too far, IMO. Queen Tiy is only the foetuses’ great-great-grandmother (through Akhenaten, Meritaten and Tutankhamen), or their great-grandmother (through Akhenaten and Ankhesenamen). Therefore, any “non-Tiy-originated” genetic material inherited “from someone else” could have come through one or another of five different non-Tiy ancestors without involving Yuya and Thuya.
Nefertum wrote:
Assuming that KV21A is Ankhesenamun, she and her probable children show a descent from Yuya and Thuya which can only have come from her mother.
I believe the basis for this inference is not correct. From a scientific viewpoint, nobody can “show a descent”, even though a set of alleles may be found to coincide. The coincidence could be due to any family relationship, descent or ascent, including even cousinhood and chance alone. Sometimes the DNA table may be read in a way that suggests ideas, but that turns out to be inevitably misleading: The alleles’ language can only be definite when it is negative, as when they adamantly refuse to allow a postulated relationship. The best example of this is KV55, whose alleles (15,15), present in his son, cannot be found in the branch of Ankhesenamen and her foetuses. This different branch issues from Akhenaten, whose mummy is therefore not KV55.

All the known alleles (of Ankhesenamen and the foetuses) that coincide with Yuya and Thuya could more reasonably have come through her father Akhenaten, who after all was Yuya and Thuya’s grandson.
Nefertum wrote:
The two foetuses from KV62 appear to show descent from Amenhotep III, but some of it is genetic material their father does not have. So it would seem that came from their mother.
Alleles 16, 6 and 8 in the same loci as before are indeed transmitted through Ankhesenamen, not through Tutankhamen.
Nefertum wrote:
They also appear to show an independent descent from both Yuya and Thuya. Each of them has material which cannot have come from Tiye, because she doesn't have it. That would suggest there's some other line of descent from Yuya and Thuya which isn't represented here. They can't have derived it from their father, because he doesn't have it. Their mother also couldn't have derived it from her father (presuming she actually is Ankhesenamun), regardless of whether KV55 is or is not Akhenaten, because no child of Tiye's could inherit genetic material from her parents that she hadn't inherited from them.
Whoa, not so fast. The foetuses’s alleles 6 and 13 (separately found on locus D7S317) must be Nefertiti’s, not Yuya and Thuya’s (who did not pass them on to Tiy).
The same is true of allele 35 on locus D21S11 and of allele 10 on locus D18S51 (which is not found in either Yuya or Thuya). No “other line of descent” is necessary to explain alleles that Nefertiti must have inherited from her pwn mother, not from Yuya or Thuya (who could be related through older ancestors). If this mother is Sitamen, as I believe, those sought-after alleles make up a part of the requirements for Sitamen's own alleles, which happen to coincide with those found on mummy KV21B.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is worth mentioning that quite distant relatives in the female line will have the same mtDNA as mother and child or siblings.

If I recall correctly a second or third cousin in the female line - who was entirely unaware of the connection - was dug up for a sample when scientists tried to identify the skeleton in a Bolivian cemetary as the Sundance Kid.
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