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KV 21 mummies and DNA tests
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neteria wrote:
KV35YL would have to be Meritaten, his wife, who ended her life as the murdered King Neferneferuaten II

The DNA suggests KV35YL is a daughter of A III and Tiye. So that seems unlikely to be Meritaten.

Neteria wrote:
The foetuses’s alleles 6 and 13 (separately found on locus D7S317) must be Nefertiti’s, not Yuya and Thuya’s (who did not pass them on to Tiy).

No, those must come from the mother - Ankhesenamun - so at most one can be claimed for Nefertiti. As KV55 may not be Akhenaten, all we can say is that 6 may have been inherited from the real Akhenaten (from A III) which leaves 13 as coming from Nefertiti (neither A III not Tiye have that one)

Neteria wrote:
The same is true of allele 35 on locus D21S11 and of allele 10 on locus D18S51 (which is not found in either Yuya or Thuya).

? Thuya has 26/35 on locus D21S1.

But that means 2 alleles which are shared with Thuya and another (10 on D18S5) which does not agree with any of the known royal mummies. That leaves 13 unknown alleles. That's not much to go on.

Neteria wrote:
No “other line of descent” is necessary to explain alleles that Nefertiti must have inherited from her pwn mother, not from Yuya or Thuya (who could be related through older ancestors). If this mother is Sitamen, as I believe, those sought-after alleles make up a part of the requirements for Sitamen's own alleles, which happen to coincide with those found on mummy KV21B.

We have a grand total of 3 alleles for Nefertiti and 13 unknown. With no data at this point for Tuthmosis IV for instance.

Those 3 alleles did not come from Amenhotep III, so if we for the sake of argument assume Nefertiti is a daughter of AIII, then these 3 come from the mother of Nefertiti. Two of these coincide with Tuya and 1 is "different".
That would possibly lead to a wife of Amenhotep who is related to Tuya (and hence Tiy) but cannot be Tuya's daughter. But we know no sisters or cousins of Tuya.

Taking this to a logical conclusion (with your assumption that the mother is Sitamen), then Sitamen is a daughter of Iaret and also related to Tuya. But Iaret is a royal daughter. So that would force Tuya to be a royal relative of Amenhotep II and Iaret (and Sitamun - according to you - their daughter).

That would assume that Tuya was of royal descent, possibly a royal daughter then, but she never mentioned it? I do not see that as a likely scenario.

The simplest explanation is to suggest that Nefertiti descends from Tuya.
This agrees with the standard theory that she is a daughter of Aye and a grand-daughter of Tiye.

But in my opinion there is just not enough information to say anything. And linking her to a Sitamen whose DNA we do not know at all seems premature.
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Neteria
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Neteria wrote:
KV35YL would have to be Meritaten, his wife, who ended her life as the murdered King Neferneferuaten II
The DNA suggests KV35YL is a daughter of A III and Tiye. So that seems unlikely to be Meritaten.
Hmm… the assertivity implied by this sentence is pervaded by a certain smell of illegality …
The assumption that KV35YL is a daughter of Tiy and AIII was previously called “postulate 2010-2” and has proved very persistent, but still remains most likely to be wrong anyway. So, if you simply assume it to be true for the sake of an argument, you’ll probably arrive at a wrong result:
anneke wrote:
So that seems unlikely to be Meritaten
which naturally reinforces the wrong assumption. This postulate can only be considered acceptable as part of a theory, which I believe will eventually be shown to be wrong.
It is now becoming commonplace to turn a thesis (meaning an “assertion to be subsequently proven”) into a hypothesis (which is a statement requiring no proof, presented as a basis for reasoning). I personally do not believe your favoured postulate 2010-2 (which as a thesis states that “KV35YL is a daughter of AIII and Tiy”), but instead the alternative postulate 2010-2A, specifying that “KV35YL is Meritaten, a daughter of AIV and Nefertiti”. Both postulates may be used as hypothetical premises, but separately, since they contradict each other. As I said many times before,
Neteria wrote:
Sometimes the DNA table may be read in a way that suggests ideas, but that turns out to be inevitably misleading.
The DNA of KV35YL may indeed suggest many things, including these two postulates and quite a few others, but most of them are simply wrong. When reading DNA alleles you must remember never to believe what they may apparently “suggest”, but only what they very unequivocally “deny”.
anneke wrote:
Neteria wrote:
The foetuses’s alleles 6 and 13 (separately found on locus D7S317) must be Nefertiti’s, not Yuya and Thuya’s (who did not pass them on to Tiy).

No, those must come from the mother - Ankhesenamun - so at most one can be claimed for Nefertiti.
Sure, they do come from Ankhesenamen who was Nefertiti’s daughter. I apologize for having initially posted a wrong locus number (the correct one must be D7S820). If you consider that Nefertiti and Ankhesenamen both had (6,13) at that locus, then 6 was inherited by one foetus, 13 by the other. It makes little difference whether you say the foetuses got these two alleles “directly” from Ankhesenamen (technically correct) or “protractedly” from Nefertiti (same alleles, slightly different origins). In the conception moment of Ankhesenamen (fecundation of the ovum), Nefertiti’s chromosomes were varied significantly, and later again when conceiving the foetuses, but those alleles (6,13) stayed the same.
anneke wrote:
Neteria wrote:
The same is true of allele 35 on locus D21S11 and of allele 10 on locus D18S51 (which is not found in either Yuya or Thuya).

? Thuya has 26/35 on locus D21S1.

Thuya has allele 35 on D21S11 but Tiy did not pass it on, so 35 must have arrived via Sitamen and Nefertiti.
anneke wrote:
But that means 2 alleles which are shared with Thuya and another (10 on D18S5) which does not agree with any of the known royal mummies. That leaves 13 unknown alleles. That's not much to go on.
Allele10 on D18S51 also came from Nefertiti since it is absent in the Tiy branch of the family.
anneke wrote:
Neteria wrote:
No “other line of descent” is necessary to explain alleles that Nefertiti must have inherited from her pwn mother, not from Yuya or Thuya (who could be related through older ancestors). If this mother is Sitamen, as I believe, those sought-after alleles make up a part of the requirements for Sitamen's own alleles, which happen to coincide with those found on mummy KV21B.

We have a grand total of 3 alleles for Nefertiti and 13 unknown. With no data at this point for Tuthmosis IV for instance.
While Thutmes IV’s alleles can only be shown inferentially through probability tables, his descendants can be viewed with much better assuredness, particularly Nefertiti and Akhenaten, whose DNA is known through the alleles of several relatives.
anneke wrote:
The simplest explanation is to suggest that Nefertiti descends from Tuya. This agrees with the standard theory that she is a daughter of Aye and a grand-daughter of Tiye.

I do not find it the “simplest”, but it is plausible. It would be simpler to assume Nefertiti descends from someone very related to Thuya (in the TAMNSI theory, this is Iaret). Being descended from Thuya herself is just a special case of someone “very related”. There’s no need to insert Ay into this ascendant family tree, but no need to exclude him either.
anneke wrote:
But in my opinion there is just not enough information to say anything. And linking her to a Sitamen whose DNA we do not know at all seems premature.

Sitamen’s DNA would have to be partially known, to allow her the possibility of being the mother of Nefertiti and Smenkhkare. This knowledge allows us to identify most of her DNA alleles and thus determine that they happen to be the same as those alleles measured for the KV21B mummy.
To the TAMNSI theory there is no such ignorance then, and the knowledge us not “premature” but timely: we now have Sitamen and the alleles not measured from her mummy can inferred through her relatives. Other theories may propose other realities, but have failed to do so, so maybe the bluff-calling moment has arrived.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um.... I have noticed a couple of DNA-type threads have been blocked.

Before I do too much more examining of this thread, can someone please tell me if this thread is likely to be blocked too?

I have found some of the ideas raised here fascinating, and Neteria certainly raises some interesting DNA 'facts' for thought and discussion, but I'm a bit worried they might end up being not very scientifically based. A fear, not an allegation. I don't have any intention of insulting anyone by merely asking!

I really want to check out people's ideas, and with respect, but I certainly don't want to knowingly waste my time either!

Help! scratch
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the DNA threads are interesting, so i suggest you read the jama article on tut's family. you can find a really interesting family tree drawn up at national geographic. i think it was posted on one of the threads. this way you will understand the discussions more i think, pertaining to the locked threads.

i suggest reading some of the locked threads to see why they are locked. i don't want to give bad impressions, but reading througha couple, you will why they are locked.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
the DNA threads are interesting, so i suggest you read the jama article on tut's family. you can find a really interesting family tree drawn up at national geographic. i think it was posted on one of the threads. this way you will understand the discussions more i think, pertaining to the locked threads.

i suggest reading some of the locked threads to see why they are locked. i don't want to give bad impressions, but reading througha couple, you will why they are locked.


I have read some, scanned some - as soon as I detected there were 'issues' I stopped paying too much attention to them. I'm not interested in Racial Theory -- I'm interested in solving Egypotlogical Riddles (and refuting your cherished beliefs if I can, kyle -- or proving them right after after all, if that's where the evidence takes me! Laughing

Are Neteria's basic assessments (forgetting for the moment whether you agree where those assessments have taken Neteria) generally fairly sound?

I have read through them a couple of times already, but got a bit unnerved when I read/scanned some of those 'offending' threads.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes - I have seen the genealogical picture-chart, but I haven't actually read JAMA article yet --- but I shall do so shortly!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
Um.... I have noticed a couple of DNA-type threads have been blocked.

Before I do too much more examining of this thread, can someone please tell me if this thread is likely to be blocked too?

I have found some of the ideas raised here fascinating, and Neteria certainly raises some interesting DNA 'facts' for thought and discussion, but I'm a bit worried they might end up being not very scientifically based. A fear, not an allegation. I don't have any intention of insulting anyone by merely asking!

I really want to check out people's ideas, and with respect, but I certainly don't want to knowingly waste my time either!

Help! scratch


I'm only locking threads in which you're taking part, Orwell. So, this thread is locked...

Kidding!

Some threads have been locked because the topic of genetics has been twisted and skewed to try to prove racial origins. Afrocentric and eurocentric views are not welcomed at ED; such people can bring their socio-political agendas somewhere else.

Such is not the case here, as far as I can see. This topic was being discussed during my absence from ED, but I perused it and it looks legitimate to me. It's about the genetic studies of the Amarna mummies and is based on relevant and legitimate scientific material so feel free to comment. Besides, the topic was begun by anneke, and anneke doesn't do fringe.

But if you're going to suggest that Tut and his ancestors came from aliens, I'm going to have to hurt you. Twisted Evil
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You gave me quite a fright there, Kmt_sesh.

I hope you're not trying to spook me and distract me from the case --- err...

because I'm getting too close to finding out ...

the...

Real...

Truth....? Idea


... that you're an Alien! Shocked
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:

Are Neteria's basic assessments (forgetting for the moment whether you agree where those assessments have taken Neteria) generally fairly sound?


No. Lot of wishful thinking and lack of understanding.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
You gave me quite a fright there, Kmt_sesh.

I hope you're not trying to spook me and distract me from the case --- err...

because I'm getting too close to finding out ...

the...

Real...

Truth....? Idea


... that you're an Alien! Shocked


It gives me cheap thrills to scare other people, so my work here is done. Laughing
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Orwell wrote:

Are Neteria's basic assessments (forgetting for the moment whether you agree where those assessments have taken Neteria) generally fairly sound?


No. Lot of wishful thinking and lack of understanding.


I was reading through some of the old posts and frankly couldn't follow Neteria's logic. I'm glad you maintained a clear and strong front.

Part of it is my problem, I admit. I'm still sketchy on a lot of the finer points of the science of genetics. To alleviate this problem I recently purchased Genetic for Dummies. I'm not kidding.

Besides, I figure it's the same source to which all of the scientists turn, right? Embarassed
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
I'm still sketchy on a lot of the finer points of the science of genetics. To alleviate this problem I recently purchased Genetic for Dummies. I'm not kidding.

Besides, I figure it's the same source to which all of the scientists turn, right? Embarassed


Smile I can at least go back to my training in the 80s as a botanist. I had to take several classes on genetics. And I cloned orchids for a living for a while, so I have some background in genetics.

But genetics has come a long way since I dabbled in it. I have had the chance to learn a bit more about gene sequencing and the analysis that goes on due to the bio-statisticians I have had a chance to talk to lately. The upshot for me is that you really have to know a lot about the gene sequencing, and the statistics used to analyze the data and it is really easy to overstate what can be deduced from the data.

Statistics can be (ab)used to manipulate data or plainly lead to mistakes if you do not know exactly what you are doing. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read through the thread several times. It's hard to focus - especially if your brain functions like mine does! I do have the attention span of a newt. For all that, Neteria sounded kind of like he/she knew what he/she was talking about - even if the speculations based on his/her conclusions might not be up to close scrutiny.

You might be able to help me here, guys.

(1) KV21a is Mother of the foetuses in KV62. She is likely to be Anksenenum, wife of Tut?

(2) KV55 mummy is Father of Tut (and Full Brother of KV 35 YL).

(3) KV35 YL is Mother of Tut (and Full Sister of KV55).

(4) KV55 is NOT Father of KV21a.

(5) KV 35 YL is NOT Mother or Sister of KV21a.

(6) KV 35 EL is Mother of both KV55 and KV35 YL.

Now, is there any dispute about above 6 points, do you know?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
For all that, Neteria sounded kind of like he/she knew what he/she was talking about - even if the speculations based on his/her conclusions might not be up to close scrutiny.


I would never characterize that poster as "knowing what they are talking about", but that is my personal opinion.

I got fed up by their fanatical posting - reposting and more reposting of their pet theory that I decided to ignore the person. I find them a waste of time.

I could say more, but what's the point?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I would never characterize that poster as "knowing what they are talking about", but that is my personal opinion.

I got fed up by their fanatical posting - reposting and more reposting of their pet theory that I decided to ignore the person. I find them a waste of time.

I could say more, but what's the point?


We are a passionate band here, aren't we! Laughing

But now... to busy...

What about my 6 points above? What think ye? Idea
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