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Smenkhkare
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nicky_too
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:22 am    Post subject: Smenkhkare Reply with quote

I have read a few things about Smenkhkare and the most obvious issue is his/her identity.
Was Smenkhkare a man or a woman? And is Smenkhkare just another name for someone else?

I assume I don't have to give any background, since you very likely already know exactly what I'm getting at. I'm just curious as to your views on this.

At the moment I feel I don't know enough to make up my mind, so any views are interesting to me.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

most things about smenkhkare are not agreed upon.

what is known is that there are 2 separate entities using the same name.

1) ankhkheperure djeserkheperu smenkhkare- a man

2) ankhetkheperure neferneferuaten- a woman

smenkhkare was a male king, married to meritaten, daughter of akhenaten. evidence of this comes from 2 tombs in amarna, with reliefs. smenkhkare reigned for about 1 year after the death of akhenaten. some thing their was a co regency, but the evidence is scanty.

neferneferuaten ruled on her own for about 3 years after smenkhkare's death. she was possibly a regent for tutankhamun. some think she was nefertiti, or akhenaten's 4th daughter neferneferuaten tasherit. i personally think it makes more sense if nefeneferuaten was smenkhkare's widow queen meritaten.

as to burial. we know a lot of tutankhamun's burial equipment was not his. neferneferuaten's name has been usurped for tutankhamun's. im not sure if smenkhkare's name is on anything from tut's tomb, but it is believed the middle coffin is his, as the features differ from the other 2 coffins.

it is a more widely thought view that the kv 55 mummy is smenkhkare's. some tradionalists still think it is akhenaten.
most studies on the mummy by specialists in their field, agree that the mummy is no older than 22 at death. recently, hawass unconvincingly claimed the mummy could be as old as 60.
akhenaten ruled for 17 years. he had a child by the first year of his rule, so he has to be at least 14 at his accession. therefore he must be around 33 at least for the mummy to be his.
now, while it is agreed it is hard to give an accurate age for bodies in general, those aged under 25 are considered accurate, as certain parts of the body age and move more consistently then. for example the mummy has fused bones in the chest and legs, which happen around 18-20, and some teeth still havn't erupted yet, again supporting a younger age. akhenaten at 30 is unlikely to have many teeth, as the grit and sand get into the bread in production.

we also know this mummy is the father of tutankhamun, and a son of amenhotep III and queen tiye. we also know his son was conceived by a sister.

personally think amenhotep III and tiye are the parents of akhenaten and smenkhkare- brothers. towards the end of his reign, akhenaten realised he had no sons, and smenkhkare had tutankhamun already. smenkhkare marries his niece meritaten, and dies shortly afterwards. she rules as regent? and does a hateshepsut? maybe she ruled in her right, and was suceeded by tutankhamun.
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nicky_too
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. That's very helpful.

I am also curious as to why people think we're dealing with Nefertiti. Any extra info on that?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well the hunt is on for amarna royalty. they found tut's parents, identified for certain amenhotep III and tiye. the foetuses found in tut's tomb are most likely his according to DNA tests. their probable mother is a mummy from kv21, assuming tut only had kids with ankhsenamun, it is not unlikely one of the mummies is her. the other may be a close relative, a sister or her mother even. if it is ankhesenamun, then there is a possible template you can use to see where nefertiti's genes come into the picture.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicky_too wrote:
Thank you. That's very helpful.

I am also curious as to why people think we're dealing with Nefertiti. Any extra info on that?


The use of the praenomen 'Nefer-Nerferu-Aten' suggested Nefertiti since it was originally her name. However there is good reason to believe that Nefertiti predeceased her husband and was buried as a King's Wife NOT a Pharaoh.

Personally I agree with Kyle that Pharaoh Neferneferuaten was most probably Meritaten as she would have been in the perfect position to take power after her husband's early death. Also as eldest daughter of the last Pharaoh but one she would have had an excellent claim, better at least in her mind and those of her supporters, to that of Smenkhkara's son by another woman.
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nicky_too
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
However there is good reason to believe that Nefertiti predeceased her husband and was buried as a King's Wife NOT a Pharaoh.


I am very much unaware of that. Would you care to elaborate? (I'm here to learn after all Smile )
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we know Nefertiti's name vanishes from the record after about year fourteen (her appearance in the reliefs decorating the tomb of her second daughter are believed to the last glimpse of her). Cyril Aldred also reports a talatat from Hermopolis, probably formerly part of Queen Kiya's sunshade, which show Akhenaten worshipping the Aten attended by his two elder daughters dressed as adults - but neither wearing queenly regalia - with Kiya and her daughter on the register beneath them. This STRONGLY suggests that the widowed Akhenaten finished his reign with Kiya as his primary wife and his eldest daughters splitting the formal duties of a Great Wife between them.

Also fragments of an ushbati belonging to Nefertiti's burial gives only her queenly titles. The balance of evidence suggests Nefer predeceased her husband and was buried as a Great Wife but NOT Pharaoh.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
The balance of evidence suggests Nefer predeceased her husband and was buried as a Great Wife but NOT Pharaoh.


I do not agree with that statement. I think that one ushabti does not make a funerary equipment made for Queen Nefertiti. There are other examples where there seem to be votive offerings of such ushabtis. For example one of Queen Isetnofret found in Abydos. And we do know she was buried in Thebes.
Similarly a shabti of one of the Ramesside queens was found in Saqqara (I cannot remember if it was Isetnofret of Bintanath).

The usurpation of stelas at the end of the Aarna period is hard to interpret. If Nefertiti had become co-regent one would expect her place as great royal wife to be usurped by someone else as well. So I do not see that as really making a very clear point at all.

I think the balance of evidence is ambiguous and open for interpretation. The name Neferneferuaten can be seen as suggesting that she was in fact the new co-regent (at least retaining part of her name). The depiction of Nefertiti smiting enemies shows a woman taking on kingly prerogatives. The inscription (graffiti) in the Theban tomb referring to the temple of Neferneferuaten in Thebes and referring to a year 3 in that rulers reign could also suggest that there was activity in the cult of this (co-)regent's temple in Thebes. I'm not sure if this temple is now thought to refer to the male or female regent. My impression is that this is actually to a female ruling for at least 3 years. And we do know that Nefertiti had at least the hut ben-ben dedicated to her.

Then again, it is true that this woman could be Meritaten, but besides her appearance as the very "proper" wife of a king, there is no evidence really that Meritaten took on the role of king. I agree that it could have happened, but there is even less evidence for this theory than for the one that supposes the female ruler to be Nefertiti.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with anneke in that the only evidence of nefertiti's burial is the one shabti. i also agree in that nefertiti's shabti may have been made before her death, so nefertiti's position is also suspect.

but i do believe nefertiti predeceased akhenaten. there would be no need to elevate nefertiti to a role as co regent, when akhenaten had his probable brother smenkhkare. and 2 kings on the throne does not change the great royal wife status. im sure we know of no such changes under the frequent 12th dynasty co regencies.

i was always under the impression kiya had predeceased or fallen from favour before nefertiti's disappearance. but if kiya was replaced by meritaten or ankhesenpaaten in one instance i think, this would show nefertiti had died before kiya's removal from official monuments. elevating a daughter over a new wife as chief queen is nothing new. akhenaten may have followed his father's precedent as rameses II would also emulate. granted tiye just relaxed her duties, not having been officially sidelined.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylejustin wrote
Quote:
most things about smenkhkare are not agreed upon


I think that's an understatement if ever there was one. Wink

I also agree with Anneke that if the only evidence that Nefertiti was buried as a queen and not a king is one shabti then that's pretty slim evidence.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The talatat is good argument that not only did Nefertiti predecease her husband AND Kiya but that Akhenaten had no co-regent in the last years of his reign.

To repeat; Akhenaten is shown presiding over a sacrifice attended by his elder daughters, neither wearing a queen's crown, with Kiya and her daughter in a lower register showing their inferior status in relation to the princesses.

From this we can see a) Nefertiti is no longer in the picture, nor is a co-regent. b) Akhenaten may NOT have married Meritaten since she is not wearing a crown. c) Kiya was not 'disgraced' before Nefertiti's death and may well have survived Akhenaten. I have argued that the transfer of her properties to Meritaten don't necessarily mean either death OR disgrace merely a reshuffling of estates among the royal women, possibly due to the deaths of Tiye and Nefertiti.

Was the 'Mistress of your House' mentioned in the Amarna letters Kiya not Meritaten? Mayati is spoken of earlier and the correspondent is angry with her for not writing condolences on his illness. However he sends gifts to the 'Mistress of the House', couldn't they be different women?

Kiya was never a 'Great Wife' but she did have special status over and above that of lesser wives with her unique title of 'Greatly Beloved' her estates and her sunshades. She may however have become more prominent after the death of the Chief Wife as mistress of Akhenaten's house while Nefertiti's daughters divided her public duties between them.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
... Cyril Aldred also reports a talatat from Hermopolis, probably formerly part of Queen Kiya's sunshade, which show Akhenaten worshipping the Aten attended by his two elder daughters dressed as adults - but neither wearing queenly regalia - with Kiya and her daughter on the register beneath them. ...

Could you please give closer data for this talatat?

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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
The talatat is good argument that not only did Nefertiti predecease her husband AND Kiya but that Akhenaten had no co-regent in the last years of his reign.

To repeat; Akhenaten is shown presiding over a sacrifice attended by his elder daughters, neither wearing a queen's crown, with Kiya and her daughter in a lower register showing their inferior status in relation to the princesses.

From this we can see a) Nefertiti is no longer in the picture, nor is a co-regent. b) Akhenaten may NOT have married Meritaten since she is not wearing a crown. c) Kiya was not 'disgraced' before Nefertiti's death and may well have survived Akhenaten.


I think the talatat is interesting and raises questions, but I do not see it as a "smoking gun"

All this shows is that the status of Nefertiti seems to have changed.
As a comparison: during a recorded visit of Ramesses II to Abu Simbel, it is mentioned that Nefertari is present. Yet on a stela Ramesses is accompanied by their daughter Meritamen and Nefertari is not in the scene. So here absence does not mean death.

For all we know the absence of Nefertiti just means she was not present at that event, but she may have been somewhere else? Could Nefertiti have been in Thebes or Memphis? Or maybe only one ruler at a time presided over such a sacrifice?

Just to be clear: I am a bit agnostic on this whole issue. I think there's not quite enough information to really say what happened. Those who tried to destroy Akhenaten (and Nefertiti''s) memory did not completely succeed, but did enough damage to make the archaeological record rather puzzling.
So many of the artifacts and inscriptions have multiple possible interpretations.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
The talatat ... To repeat; Akhenaten is shown presiding over a sacrifice attended by his elder daughters, neither wearing a queen's crown, with Kiya and her daughter in a lower register showing their inferior status in relation to the princesses. ...


I think the talatat is interesting and raises questions, but I do not see it as a "smoking gun" ...

And I would like to see it ... Or would like to have some informations : When? Where? From whom? found. Is it published? Where is it today? As far as I know there are no representations of Nofretete and / or her daughters together with Kija.

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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Smenkhkare? Looks like a Lady. [/url]
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