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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the canopic jars do not have an uraeus. the coffin does, but it was a late addition.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
the canopic jars do not have an uraeus. the coffin does, but it was a late addition.

No, the uraeus on the coffin is original. X-ray and CT (Munich 2001) show not the slightest indication of future remodeling / installation.

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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The canopic jars seem to have been modified by a uraeus (see hole drilled in browband) which were later broken off. The curves of a snake's body were also carved over the curls of the wig.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
The canopic jars seem to have been modified by a uraeus (see hole drilled in browband) which were later broken off. The curves of a snake's body were also carved over the curls of the wig.

Pure speculation. Something like that would leave traces. They could not be found in Munich on the piece from New York. I have seen the other three with my own eyes in Cairo, same there.

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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
The canopic jars seem to have been modified by a uraeus (see hole drilled in browband) which were later broken off. The curves of a snake's body were also carved over the curls of the wig.


The ureaus & beard are original to the coffin.

However, the canopic stoppers have been modified by the addition of a uraeus, which was then broken off. Are the carved snake bodies on the canopic stoppers? If so, that would fit.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
The canopic jars seem to have been modified by a uraeus (see hole drilled in browband) which were later broken off. The curves of a snake's body were also carved over the curls of the wig.


The ureaus & beard are original to the coffin.

However, the canopic stoppers have been modified by the addition of a uraeus, which was then broken off. Are the carved snake bodies on the canopic stoppers? If so, that would fit.


Yes I was referring to the stoppers. Did Lutz think I meant the coffin? If so sorry I wasn't clearer.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
khazarkhum wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
The canopic jars seem to have been modified by a uraeus (see hole drilled in browband) which were later broken off. The curves of a snake's body were also carved over the curls of the wig.


The ureaus & beard are original to the coffin.

However, the canopic stoppers have been modified by the addition of a uraeus, which was then broken off. Are the carved snake bodies on the canopic stoppers? If so, that would fit.


Yes I was referring to the stoppers. Did Lutz think I meant the coffin? If so sorry I wasn't clearer.


I wasn't sure, either. The stoppers have been modified for someone royal. I wonder if the uraeui were gold, and therefore more attractive to thieves?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
I wasn't sure, either. The stoppers have been modified for someone royal. I wonder if the uraeui were gold, and therefore more attractive to thieves?

Also here, would like to see the proof, please. If the body of the uräus would be a later addition this would mean that the complete wig had to be reworked ... on all four heads. For me rather improbably, with this expenditure one could also make new objects.

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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
khazarkhum wrote:
I wasn't sure, either. The stoppers have been modified for someone royal. I wonder if the uraeui were gold, and therefore more attractive to thieves?

Also here, would like to see the proof, please. If the body of the uräus would be a later addition this would mean that the complete wig had to be reworked ... on all four heads. For me rather improbably, with this expenditure one could also make new objects.

Lutz


I don't see that. Just drill hole and insert uraei - which seems to have been done - and carve a pair of parallel curvy lines on the wig. Done.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Lutz wrote:
If the body of the uräus would be a later addition this would mean that the complete wig had to be reworked ... on all four heads. For me rather improbably, with this expenditure one could also make new objects.

Lutz

I don't see that. Just drill hole and insert uraei - which seems to have been done - and carve a pair of parallel curvy lines on the wig. Done.

A processing method as described by you would be without question only by eye inspection vissible. I know the objects in Cairo very well, on them it is not the case. I've seen them several times intense and also direct below this point.

Lutz
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Lutz wrote:
If the body of the uräus would be a later addition this would mean that the complete wig had to be reworked ... on all four heads. For me rather improbably, with this expenditure one could also make new objects.

Lutz

I don't see that. Just drill hole and insert uraei - which seems to have been done - and carve a pair of parallel curvy lines on the wig. Done.

A processing method as described by you would be without question only by eye inspection vissible. I know the objects in Cairo very well, on them it is not the case. I've seen them several times intense and also direct below this point.

Lutz


You have never noticed the very obvious hole in the middle of the forehead?

Also, it's much faster to drill a hole and attach a ureaus made from a mold than it is to recarve the whole set.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
You have never noticed the very obvious hole in the middle of the forehead? ...

The hole proves only that there was an uraeus. Whether it was added later, or was originally, is another matter. The body of the snake seems to be originally carved into the stone. There is no hint of any subsequent development.

Lutz
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz
check out www.metmuseum.org/toah/worksofart/30
The description mentions the hole drilled for an uraeus, which can be seen on one of the smaller pictures.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, OsirisII, your links seems to be broken. At least one of the canopic jars is in the Metropolitan Museum, NY, and I've seen it a number of times myself.

Here is a link to an image of the Met canopic jar: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/KV55-CanopicJar-AmarnaQueen-CloseUp_MetropolitanMuseum.png
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Kemetian
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Orwell wrote:
... 'Guessed at' or 'imagined' facts are cool, but it would be nice to know this at the time of reading. Wink ...

This problem had / has everyone dealing with the Amarna kings sooner or later. I try to do a sorting (without guarantee) :

In principle there are four name forms, to be assigned to one or several successors of Akhenaton. They can come alone or also with different partially on Akhenaton alluding epitheta.

"Anch-cheperu-Ra" arises either alone or together with one of five epitheta in a cartouche:

    - "mery Nefer-cheperu-Ra" = beloved of Nefer-cheperu-Ra (thron name of Akhenaton) or also "meryet Nefer-Cheperu-Ra" = the female form

    - "mery Wa-en-ra" = beloved of Wa-en-ra ("The only one of Ra", ephiteton to the thron name of Akhenaton. In texts Wa-en-Ra can also stay alone for him, but then without cartouche.)

    - "mery Aton" = beloved of the Aton

    - "pa chem Akhetaton = the servant from Akhetaton.


"Anchet-cheperu-Ra" with ephiteton "meryet Wa-en-Ra" together in a cartouche known only in this combination.

"Nefer-neferu-Aton" in combination with the name "Nefer-ti-iti" together in a cartouche, known longer than the name "Akhenaton" for "Amenhotep IV." from Talatat in Karnak.

"Nefer-neferu-Aton" also in cartouche in combination with ephiteton

    - "mery Akhenaton" = beloved of Akhenaton

    - "mery Wa-en-Ra" = beloved of Waenra (Akhenaton)

    - "Hequa" = Herrscher

    - "Achet en heies" = useful for their husband

"Semench-ka-Ra Djeser cheperu" in cartouche and only without ephiteton.

These names can occur in different combinations with one another. But also here rules according to which they are used:

"Anch-cheperu-Ra" can stay alone, together with the name of "Meritaton" or also in combination with "Semench-ka-Ra Djeser cheperu". With one of the epithetons it can stay alone or in combination with "Nefer-neferu-Ra". The female form "Anchet-cheperu-Ra" is not prooved in combination with other names.

"Nefer-neferu-Aton" exists in two combinations. One time with the name of "Nefer-ti-iti" together in one cartouche. Possible is also the combination with "Anch-cheperu-Ra + ephiteton" in the first cartouche.

"Semenkh-ka-Ra Djeser cheperu" can stay alone or with "Anch-cheperu-Ra" without epitheton in first cartouche.


We have simplified expressed the possibility of three combinations of the names :
    - the name "Nefer-neferu-Aton Nefer-ti-iti" in one cartouche, alone

    - "Anch-cheperu-Ra + ephiteton" and "Nefer-neferu-Ra + epitheton", in two cartouches

    - "Anch-cheperu-Ra" + "Semench-ka-Ra Djeser cheperu", in two cartouches.


Greetings, Lutz.


Hi Lutz,

A creditable list.

However, I would like to point out that the epithet "beloved of Akhenaten" attested for Neferneferuaten does not exist. As far as I can tell from my studies every example said to read beloved of akhenaten is actually an example of the epithet "effective for her husband.

Regards, Kemetian
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