Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

the nefertiti shabti

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:04 am    Post subject: the nefertiti shabti Reply with quote

i was reading the tour egypt article on nefertiti, and they talk of aldred's discussion on the infamous nefertiti shabti.

Quote:
However, other scholars are equally adamant against Nefertiti ever having been a co-regent or ruling after her husband's death. In his book, Akhenaten: King of Egypt, Cyril Aldred references a funerary objected called a shawabti. On it was inscribed:

"The Heiress, high and mighty in the palace, one trusted [of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt (Neferkheperure, Wa'enre), the son of Re (Akhenaten), Great in] his Lifetime, the Chief Wife of the King (Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti), Living for Ever and Ever."

Aldred claims that this shawabti, according to the above inscription, can only belong to Nefertiti, and not, as some scholars argue, a donation by her to Akhenaten's burial. Presumably, this object was made after the queen's death as it was the custom during this period to make such objects during the embalming process.

Aldred also maintains that is was the custom in orthodox funerary benedictions to follow the name of the deceased with maet kheru (justified). Akhenaten rejected this practice as part of his new religion, but even so, two of his own shawabti were nevertheless inscribed with phrase after his own death. However, even though the phrase returns to favor immediately after Akhenaten's death, it is absent from Nefertiti's shawabti, evidencing her death during his reign.

He also notes that the shawabti represents her as a queen regnant, and not as a co-regent in male attire. Though this single piece of evidence seems somewhat scanty, he believes that Nefertiti died during year 14 of Akhenanten's reign.

If he is indeed correct that Nefertiti died during the reign of her husband, his dating is probably correct. Nefertiti is depicted on a number of reliefs including that of her second daughter's burial, who is believed to have died during the thirteenth year of Akhenanten's reign. However, that is the last that we see of the queen. This is also about the time (year 14) that dockets for delivery of wine from the estate of Nefertiti also cease, so the presumption by Aldred is that Nefertiti must have died sometime very near Akhenaten's 14th year as king.



i thought it was quite interesting the part about 'maet kheru' being abandoned during akhenaten's rule, but coming back after his death. is this true? i have never heard of it.

also, the wine dockets of nefertiti's estate, what do we know of these?
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: the nefertiti shabti Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i was reading the tour egypt article on nefertiti, and they talk of aldred's discussion on the infamous nefertiti shabti.

Quote:
However, other scholars are equally adamant against Nefertiti ever having been a co-regent or ruling after her husband's death. In his book, Akhenaten: King of Egypt, Cyril Aldred references a funerary objected called a shawabti. On it was inscribed:

"The Heiress, high and mighty in the palace, one trusted [of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt (Neferkheperure, Wa'enre), the son of Re (Akhenaten), Great in] his Lifetime, the Chief Wife of the King (Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti), Living for Ever and Ever."

<...>
Aldred also maintains that is was the custom in orthodox funerary benedictions to follow the name of the deceased with maet kheru (justified). Akhenaten rejected this practice as part of his new religion, but even so, two of his own shawabti were nevertheless inscribed with phrase after his own death. However, even though the phrase returns to favor immediately after Akhenaten's death, it is absent from Nefertiti's shawabti, evidencing her death during his reign.

He also notes that the shawabti represents her as a queen regnant, and not as a co-regent in male attire. Though this single piece of evidence seems somewhat scanty, he believes that Nefertiti died during year 14 of Akhenanten's reign.

If he is indeed correct that Nefertiti died during the reign of her husband, his dating is probably correct. Nefertiti is depicted on a number of reliefs including that of her second daughter's burial, who is believed to have died during the thirteenth year of Akhenanten's reign. However, that is the last that we see of the queen. This is also about the time (year 14) that dockets for delivery of wine from the estate of Nefertiti also cease, so the presumption by Aldred is that Nefertiti must have died sometime very near Akhenaten's 14th year as king.



i thought it was quite interesting the part about 'maet kheru' being abandoned during akhenaten's rule, but coming back after his death. is this true? i have never heard of it.


Actually, this is a bit of legend: there are quite a few inscribed shabti of Akhenaten, and even an inscription or two referring to a living Akhenaten, which include the phrase /mAat xrw/ - which of course, can mean more than referring to the deceased.

The Wörterbuch, II: 15-18 tells us there are 3 meanings to /mAa(.t) xrw/:

a) "justified" [gerechtfertigt]
b) "blessed/beatified [Selig]
c) "triumphant" [Triumpherien]

a) and c) can refer to the living as well as the dead - for one is "justified" in court cases, in disputes, etc. One can "triumph" over one's enemies, such as the King, or again, a person in a dispute of some sort, such as a court case.

Obviously b) is a term used more for the dead and for the divine, but again, can be used among the living, such a when a person is venerated in life, such as Amenhotep, Son of Hapu, among others, who was held in veneration during his life and made a deity after death.

So, one cannot say for a fact that any one meaning is the only meaning to /mAa xrw/. It's not used only for the dead (despite many popular books which state this).

kylejustin wrote:
also, the wine dockets of nefertiti's estate, what do we know of these?


I don't think that there are any mentions of Nefertiti after Year 12, so I would like to know the author's assertion for references to a Year 14 date. I suspect he/she may be referring to a wine docket from the queen's estate, which does not mean Nefertiti herself was still living.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4001
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:44 am    Post subject: Re: the nefertiti shabti Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... Akhenaten: King of Egypt, Cyril Aldred references a funerary objected called a shawabti. On it was inscribed:

"The Heiress, high and mighty in the palace, one trusted [of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt (Neferkheperure, Wa'enre), the son of Re (Akhenaten), Great in] his Lifetime, the Chief Wife of the King (Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti), Living for Ever and Ever." ...

See Christian E. Loeben : Eine Bestattung der großen königlichen Gemahlin Nofretete in Amarna? - Die Totenfigur der Nofretete. - In: Mitteilungen des Deutschen Archäologischen Instituts, Abteilung Kairo - MDAIK - 42. - pp. 99 - 107. - Mainz : von Zabern, 1986. - ISSN : 0342-1279

or Une inhumation de la grande épouse royale Néfertiti à Amarna? La figurine funéraire de Néfertiti. - In: Akhénaton et l'époque amarnienne - Bibliothèque d'Egypte, Afrique et Orient. - pp. 235 - 246. - Paris : Ed. Kheops, 2005. - ISBN : 2-9504368-6-2.

kylejustin wrote:
... Aldred claims that this shawabti, according to the above inscription, can only belong to Nefertiti, and not, as some scholars argue, a donation by her to Akhenaten's burial. Presumably, this object was made after the queen's death as it was the custom during this period to make such objects during the embalming process. ...

For this statement I would like to see some proofs ... And an explanation for object Berlin ÄMP 17555. That might probably not exist after that theorie?

Greetings, Lutz.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for the information, it has been quite enlightening. i have noticed that while tour egypt does a remarkable job of balancing evidence, and does not force the authors opinions on their subjects on you, the information in some areas reads a little shady and mythical.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Styler78
Priest
Priest


Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 974
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
thank you for the information, it has been quite enlightening. i have noticed that while tour egypt does a remarkable job of balancing evidence, and does not force the authors opinions on their subjects on you, the information in some areas reads a little shady and mythical.


I have found them useful in certain areas- as a good starting point. If you notice errors, do contact the site owners. I am sure they would be prepared to correct any errors.

Wink
_________________
Beloved of Hathor, Chief of Thebes, Not the Messiah just a Very Naughty Boy!

http://styler78hatshepsutproject.blogspot.com/

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: the nefertiti shabti Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
I don't think that there are any mentions of Nefertiti after Year 12, so I would like to know the author's assertion for references to a Year 14 date. I suspect he/she may be referring to a wine docket from the queen's estate, which does not mean Nefertiti herself was still living.


I believe the year 14 date is deduced from Nefertiti's appearance in the mourning scenes for Meketaten who presumably died after year 12 given her presence in the Durbar scenes. Why yr. 14 was chosen for her death I do not recall.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: the nefertiti shabti Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
neseret wrote:
I don't think that there are any mentions of Nefertiti after Year 12, so I would like to know the author's assertion for references to a Year 14 date. I suspect he/she may be referring to a wine docket from the queen's estate, which does not mean Nefertiti herself was still living.


I believe the year 14 date is deduced from Nefertiti's appearance in the mourning scenes for Meketaten who presumably died after year 12 given her presence in the Durbar scenes. Why yr. 14 was chosen for her death I do not recall.


Most Egyptologists assign Year 12 [Akhenaten] to the death of Maketaten and the year Nefertiti disappears from the record. I believe Year 14 is the date assigned to Tiye's death, but in all cases, none of this is based upon actual inscribed evidence or anything definitive.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upon reflection I believe the higher date is preferred by those who believe Meketaten died in childbirth. Yr. 12 is cutting things a bit fine as we aren't quite sure how long after her father's succession Meketaten was born. Yr. 14 gives plenty of margin for her to reach menarche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group