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mutbenret and mutnodjmet
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: mutbenret and mutnodjmet Reply with quote

i understand the consensus that these 2 women are likely 2 separate ladies. but i have a few questions.

mutbenret- we know from inscriptions, that she was nefertiti's sister. and it is thought mutbenret is the daughter of ay and tey. is there any evidence she was ay's daughter?

mutnodjmet- i know she was buried at saqqara, with horemheb's first wife amenia. her skeleton was examined, found to have been in childbirth many times, and the presence of a baby implies mutnodjmet died in childbirth. when was her skeleton examined? and was it only examined once? is there a report available?
i know hawass thought it a possibility that she was a sister of nefertiti, as he went to get this skeleton for the DNA testing on tut's family. he said he could not find it. is it possible he did find her mummy, and had it tested, but it didn't fit with his ideas so he lied about it, similar along the lines of not releasing the DNA on hatshepsut and ahmose nefertari?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: mutbenret and mutnodjmet Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:

mutbenret- we know from inscriptions, that she was nefertiti's sister. and it is thought mutbenret is the daughter of ay and tey. is there any evidence she was ay's daughter?

For as far as I know there is no evidence linking Mutbenret with Aye and Tey. She is shown in several of the Amarna tombs, including the tomb of Aye.
But she is also shown in the tomb of Parennefer (in the award scene, standing behind the 3 eldest daughters), Tutu (with her two dwarfs and servants), Panehesy, May and anonymous tombs 20 and 22.

kylejustin wrote:
mutnodjmet- i know she was buried at saqqara, with horemheb's first wife amenia. her skeleton was examined, found to have been in childbirth many times, and the presence of a baby implies mutnodjmet died in childbirth. when was her skeleton examined? and was it only examined once? is there a report available?
i know hawass thought it a possibility that she was a sister of nefertiti, as he went to get this skeleton for the DNA testing on tut's family. he said he could not find it. is it possible he did find her mummy, and had it tested, but it didn't fit with his ideas so he lied about it, similar along the lines of not releasing the DNA on hatshepsut and ahmose nefertari?

Not sure that non matching DNA would be a reason for surpressing any data. He could easily claim then it was likely Amenia, Horemheb's first wife.
It seems more likely to me that they may indeed have a problem locating the remains. If I'm wrong, we can still hope that the new director will come forward with the information. The scientists involved with these (hypothetical) tests would know the real answers, and I doubt secrets like that would stay secrets for very long.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanx for the reply anneke. i didn't think there was any solid evidence for nefertiti or mutbenret as daughters of ay. maybe because mutbenret is present in the decoration of ay's tomb, and the similarity of ay and yuya's titles that the theory of them being his daughters arose.

i just know i never trusted hawass. he bent information to suit himself in some cases, and others his theories were just plain awful. i wouldn't put it past him to suppress information collected from DNA testing. now that i think of it, i have never heard of amenia's body being recovered from horemheb's tomb?
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
thanx for the reply anneke. i didn't think there was any solid evidence for nefertiti or mutbenret as daughters of ay. maybe because mutbenret is present in the decoration of ay's tomb, and the similarity of ay and yuya's titles that the theory of them being his daughters arose.

i just know i never trusted hawass. he bent information to suit himself in some cases, and others his theories were just plain awful. i wouldn't put it past him to suppress information collected from DNA testing. now that i think of it, i have never heard of amenia's body being recovered from horemheb's tomb?


I agree with you, there are a few things I wouldn`t put past Hawass either.
But I think in the case of the female bones recovered from Horemheb`s tomb he had probably really no information as to the whereabouts. Had he found out anything regarding these bones that displeased him it would have been easier and wiser for him to just keep quiet about it instead of showing a pointless search for the bones in the show.

Regarding Amenia`s body I think we cannot entirely be sure if the reassembled bones of the female really belong to Mutnodjemet, to Amenia or someone else.
There was after all a huge jumble of burials in Horemheb`s tomb as you can see in this abstract
http://www.springerlink.com/content/dq17mxm616600705/
but the findspot of the bones in question seems to have been the section which housed the original burial from Horemheb`s time. So we can be pretty sure it was a female relative but the identification as Mutnedjmet is IMO somewhat doubtful due to the pretty bad health and the somewhat advanced (for those times!) age of around 40. True, queens can become sick and older like everyone, but would Horemheb as a king have kept trying to sire children with her when there were many young women available for that purpose? Since she had lost all her teeth probably to infectous disease and was unable to consume solid foods she would not only have been not the prettiest sight but also would the repeated pregnancies and births have been an immense strain for her which then appears to have taken its toll.

I think all these circumstances could point to the possibility that the bones are in fact those of his first wife Amenia who is also depicted in the tomb and who seems to have died shortly after the construction of the tomb had begun. It seems to me more likely that Horemheb as a commoner had only one wife and thus kept his relationship going with this rather sick creature than Horemheb as king.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe he loved her? Maybe she desperately wanted a child and to please her he did what was necessary despite the risk to her? Of course that could be true of Mutnedjmet as well as Amenia.

Seriously, as a wealthy commoner Horemheb would have had access to a number of nubile women - I somehow doubt the pretty nude girls shown in banquet scenes were ONLY waitresses.

In a well known 'letter to the dead' an afflicted husband, who apparently thinks his dead wife is responsible, writes that because of his grief for her not only hasn't he remarried he hasn't had relations with the serving women!
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i did read somewhere that it was thought horemheb started a tomb for mutnodjmet in the valley of the queens. there is little on the valley of the queens in the first place. no one seems to care as much about it as the valley of the kings. so i guess it is possible and equally as likely that it is amenia they recovered from the tomb.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i did read somewhere that it was thought horemheb started a tomb for mutnodjmet in the valley of the queens. there is little on the valley of the queens in the first place. no one seems to care as much about it as the valley of the kings. so i guess it is possible and equally as likely that it is amenia they recovered from the tomb.


The Valley of the Queens certainly holds the possibility of an intended tomb for Mutnedjemet. Three tombs (No. 31, 40 and 75) here are designated as tombs of anonymous queens and one of the unnumbered tombs seems interestingly to have been prepared for a Queen Mut....,
although she is apparently thought to have been the wife of Seti I.
See here for more info
http://www.crystalinks.com/valleyqueens.html

AFAIK it is not known when Mutnedjmet died. As no other GRW of Horemheb is known she could well have outlived her husband. However, this still doesn`t help to answer the question if she was then buried in style in her own tomb or if she was rather dumped in the Saqqara tomb which may still have been open at the time of her death Confused
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for that sothis. i wish someone would publish a detailed book on the valley of the queens. there are a lot of interesting tombs there, and i bet if they stripped it to the bedrock like carter did in the kings, they would find some things. i have read the only mummified remains from the queens valley are the knees assumed to be nefertari's and the head of a stable master nebsini i think his name was.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... i wish someone would publish a detailed book on the valley of the queens. ...


Christian Leblanc / Alberto Siliotti : Nefertari e la Valle delle Regine. - Florenz : Giunti, 1993. - ISBN : 88-09-20275-9. - 197 p.

I have the German version : Nefertari - Ausgrabungen im Tal der Königinnen. - Augsburg : Bechtermünz, 1998. - ISBN : 3-8289-0705-9. - 197 p.

No idea if there is also an English one ...

And a Diss. by Christian Leblanc : Ta Set Neferou - Une Necropole de Thebes-Ouest et son Histoire : Geographie - Toponymie - Historique de l'Exploration Scientifique du Site. - [Lyon, Univ. de Lyon II, Diss., 1987]. - Kairo : Nubar Printing House, 1987. - ISBN : 2-9504365-0-1 ; 2-9504365-1-X. - 1 : XXIX, 116, CCXV p.

Greetings,

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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgotten, and on-line :

Christian Leblanc: Architecture et évolution chronologique des tombes de la Vallée des Reines. - In: Bulletin de l'Institut français d'archéologie Orientale - BIFAO - 89. - 1989. - pp. 227-247.

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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Mutnodjmet Reply with quote

Ay's appointed successor was general Nakhtmin who either was his son, adopted son or son-in-law. The heir was married to a lady called Mutnodjmet and that also is the name of the Great Royal Wife of Ay's successor. It is suspected Horemreb married his second wife before his succession. If it's the same lady than she either divorced or was widowed by Nakhtmin.

Im less convinced with the idea that Nefertiti's sister Mutbenret ended up changing her name and becoming the Great Royal Wife of Horemreb.

Mutnodjmet could have been the daughter of Ay and by her marriage to Horemreb she may have secured a peacefull transition from her father's reign to that of her husband. If she was his daughter-in-law it must be clear that no son from her first marriage survived. A daughter could have lived. A line that may have resulted in Nefertari Ramesess II's favorite wife.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

General Nakhtmin's wife name is actually unknown. There is another officer, both a high priest and administrator of queen Tiy's state also named Ai ("Yii") which parents were Nakhtmin and queen sister Mutemnebut.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Robson"]General Nakhtmin's wife name is actually unknown. There is another officer, both a high priest and administrator of queen Tiy's state also named Ai ("Yii") which parents were Nakhtmin and queen sister Mutemnebut.[/quote

Queen sister? Never heard of her, but sounds interesting.
Do you know if Mutemnebut is the sister of a Great Royal Wife or a lesser wife?
If she was a GRW`s sister this could probably only be Mutemwija or Tiye herself.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yii was Pharaoh Ay's officer. Thus it is likely that the GRW who was his aunt was either Tey or Ankhesenamun.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Mutnodjmet Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
Ay's appointed successor was general Nakhtmin who either was his son, adopted son or son-in-law. The heir was married to a lady called Mutnodjmet and that also is the name of the Great Royal Wife of Ay's successor. It is suspected Horemreb married his second wife before his succession. If it's the same lady than she either divorced or was widowed by Nakhtmin.

Im less convinced with the idea that Nefertiti's sister Mutbenret ended up changing her name and becoming the Great Royal Wife of Horemreb.

Mutnodjmet could have been the daughter of Ay and by her marriage to Horemreb she may have secured a peacefull transition from her father's reign to that of her husband. If she was his daughter-in-law it must be clear that no son from her first marriage survived. A daughter could have lived. A line that may have resulted in Nefertari Ramesess II's favorite wife.


ahout that how come no one make a statement that maybe Horembed married Nakhmin's bride hey wasn't she a sister or relative of Tey?
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