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Tuankhamun's MidWife?
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LadyOsiris
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Tuankhamun's MidWife? Reply with quote

I do remember watching the documentary: King Tut Unwrapped
and they mentioned that King Tut had a midwife with a name similiar to Miya or Miy! and it is believed he loved her enough to give her a tomb and he is even i believe depicted with her....? Though I try looking it up and nothing comes up.... Am I going insane?... Idea Sad Embarassed

Loved her as a mother figure that is....
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lady Maia was his wetnurse, not his midwife.

We had a discussion about her a while ago you might find interesting:
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4276

Her tomb was discovered in Saqqara by Alain Zivie, and there is indeed a scene depicting Maia with Tutankhamen on her lap. It's beautifully carved.
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LadyOsiris
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah Wet nurse Embarassed Blonde moment i admit...

It is a very beautiful depiction of Tutankhamun and Maia...

http://images.google.com/imgres?q=king+tut+maia&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=517&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=ezqkoNTvPA02eM:&imgrefurl=http://www.eloquentpeasant.com/2011/01/29/statues-of-tutankhamun-damagedstolen-from-the-egyptian-museum/&docid=h01_5QOfCqDwlM&imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Maia_and_tut.gif&w=500&h=333&ei=64cKT7LeAorn0QHXiaXBAg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=538&sig=105486160383363181261&page=1&tbnh=150&tbnw=200&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=121&ty=82

It really shows love between the two (A mother and Son love)



Smile Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadyOsiris wrote:
Oh yeah Wet nurse Embarassed Blonde moment i admit...


#Rofl Yeah, happens to all of us I think ...
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BobManske
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me of a scene in Tom Jones (and maybe in the novel, can't remember) where, in 18th century England, a highwayman (i.e. robber) stops a coach and demands that the passengers "stand and deliver".

To which an outraged female passenger retorts: "I'll have you to understand, sir, that I am no itinerant midwife!"

Great movie. Albert Finney, Susannah York, and the irrepressible Hugh Griffith.

Bob
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadyOsiris wrote:
Oh yeah Wet nurse Embarassed Blonde moment i admit...

It is a very beautiful depiction of Tutankhamun and Maia...

http://images.google.com/imgres?q=king+tut+maia&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=517&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=ezqkoNTvPA02eM:&imgrefurl=http://www.eloquentpeasant.com/2011/01/29/statues-of-tutankhamun-damagedstolen-from-the-egyptian-museum/&docid=h01_5QOfCqDwlM&imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Maia_and_tut.gif&w=500&h=333&ei=64cKT7LeAorn0QHXiaXBAg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=538&sig=105486160383363181261&page=1&tbnh=150&tbnw=200&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=121&ty=82

It really shows love between the two (A mother and Son love)



Smile Smile


I get the same feeling when looking at the Senenmut and Neferure block statues. As a (proud to be) father, i like the closeness conveyed. Of course i am not saying Senenmut is Neferure's father (thats for another discussion), but to anyone who isnt into AE- they look like father/daughter statues.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An objective review of the evidence suggests a distinctly different image of Senenmut from the sinister grey eminence and possible lover of tradition. Instead one sees an aging bachelor, a pious son and paternalistic master, who dedicated his life to his young queen and her daughter. The number of statues depicting him with Neferure suggest that the (relatively) humble position of her tutor was extremely important to him, more so than any of his other titles. His private chapel is decorated not with reliefs of himself and his family but of his queen.

Hatshepsut and Neferure seem to have meant everything to him and taken the place of a wife and children. A statue base with Senenmut's name found in the ruins of Thutmose III's temple at Deir el Bahri suggests that he was far less hostile to his stepmother's favorite than has been assumed. There is also some reason to question whether the damage done to Senenmut's monuments was the result of a deliberate damnio memori or the wear and tear and random vandalism of millenia.
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LadyOsiris
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senenmut put so much love towards Hatshepsut and Neferure! Why show so much affection if Senenmut was just merely Neferure's tutor and Hatshepsut's courtier....
Is any other other courtier depicted so lovingly with a pharoahs son or daughter? Different circumstances I guess...

Senenmut originally entered the court during the reign of Tuthmosisll
Though under Hatshepsuts reign Senenmut eventually would hold over 80 titles! I believe that is alot of titles for a courtier?....

I don't know for sure, though something seems suspicous ... Idea Idea
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh he clearly wasn't just another courtier. He was a favorite - which does not necessarily mean lover. Senenmut was clearly much older than his queen, it is quite possible he was a supportive and trusted father figure to her rather than lover.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Oh he clearly wasn't just another courtier. He was a favorite - which does not necessarily mean lover. Senenmut was clearly much older than his queen, it is quite possible he was a supportive and trusted father figure to her rather than lover.


That would certainly explain the somewhat elevated person Senenmut became.

Whilst i am not one who believes Senenmut was a lover of Hatshepsut, I do believe he gave her something no other man did. Whether it was unrelenting support of her reign or in more of a fatherly way i do not know, but it would make complete sence in this instance for Hatshepsut to have made Senenmut one of Neferure's tutors. He would then pass on the same to Neferure as he did for Hatshepsut.

Hatshepsut's allowing Senenmut to have his name appear so often at Deir el Bahri and to have allowed him free access to commission his own statues, etc seems to be an important decision. Rather thango with the "lover" line - this seems more of a perk of someone who has proven themselves beyond question, in a variety of roles, over time.

IF there was an affair, surely it would be a very poor decision to flaunt it. Rubbing such a thing in the face of Thutmose III and the Egyptian locals would have not gone unnnoticed.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in assessing the relationship between Hatshepsut and Senenmut, you have to take into the relative ages of the people involved.

The difference in age between them may not have been all that great. If you accept that Zahi Hawass' identification of KV60A as Hatshepsut is correct, then she was around 50 when she died. That would have placed her in her mid to late 20s at the time of the death of Thutmose II and in her thirties in year 7 when she is believed to have been crowned.

If you accept the theory that she was born after her father became king, and that Thutmose II had a very short reign of about three years, this would have made her around fifteen years old at her husband's death and around 21 years old in year 7 when she seems to have assumed kingly status. A trusted father figure would certainly be useful for such a young woman thrust into the position of regent and that may very well have been the case but that''s not the only possible scenario.

If you follow Manetho and allow 13 years for Thutmose II and 12 for Thutmose I that gets her age up into her mid twenties at the time of her husband's death.

I tend to think she was born before her father became king. In an article in
Hatshepsut from Queen to Pharoah W. Vivian Davies suggests, based on reconstruction of an inscription on the Hagr-el-Merwa, that a royal princess traveled to Kush during Thutmose I's Nubian campeign along with Queen Ahmose and Crown Prince Amonemose. The name is nearly illegible but it seems to fit that of Hatshepsut. If this princess is indeed Hatshepsut, it's likely that she was fairly mature at the time. It doesn't make sense that you'd drag a toddler down to Kush to show her off to the natives. It does make sense that Thutmose I wanted to demonstrate a continuity of dynasty to the newly conquered Nubians with a mature prince and a future queen at or close to marriagable age at his side. Message: "We're here. We're not going away. Get used to it."

Regarding Senenmut's age, his mummy of course has not been identified but his mother's has. His mother, Hatnefer, according to the Metropolitan Museum, died at around age 60 in year 7 of Thutmose III. She had seven attested children. Assuming she started having babies at around age 15, her oldest kid would have probably been in his or her mid to late forties at time of her death. Her youngest in his or her late twenties. There's no way of knowing where in the birth order Senenmut came. I'd guess he was one of the older boys only because he seems to have been one that this relatively modest family managed to give the best education.

Nothing's known of Senenmut's early career but one thing he claimed was that he served as a soldier and followed his king on foreign campaigns in Nubia and Asia. Unfortunately he does not name the king. Assuming this king was Thutmose I as seems most likely, he'd have had to have been at least in his mid to late teens at the time of that king's Nubian campaign. This would put him in his mid thirties to mid forties in year 7 which fits rather nicely with his mother's estimated age. He could, of course, have been refering to Amonhotep I's year 9 campaign but that would have made him a bit old to have been a child of Hatnefer.

So, in year 7 of Thutmose III Hatshepsut's probably somewhere between her mid twenties to mid thirties. Senenmut's probably somewhere in his mid thirties to mid forties. That's not a huge age gap. In fact, if I can say it without offending anyone, they're both a bit past their prime for ancient Egyptians. Around year 16 or 17 when he likely died he'd have been in his mid forties or mid fifties which fits rather nicely the age of the man in those famous caricature like drawings. She'd have been in her mid 30s to mid 40s. While this doesn't necessarily mean that there was a sexual attraction. It doesn't preclude it either. Even if there was that sort of attraction, it doesn't mean it was ever acted upon. If it was acted upon it would have had to have been unofficial. I mean, what would you call the guy? There was no such title as King's husband. (Scribal heads throughout the Two Lands explode at the very thought Very Happy )

This of course is all just speculation. Short of DNA tests linking Senenmut's parents to some branch of the later royal family there's little or no chance of proving it either way. There is Christiane Desroches Noblecourt's theory on some rather slender grounds, that Maiherpera, was Hatshepsut & Senenmut's illigitimate son born before her marriage to Thutmose II but that is a bit too out there for my taste.

As for the idea that having an affair would not be a smart thing to do--I'll grant you that. Of course smart people in leadership positions very often do very dumb things on a personal level. We Americans can proudly point to one of our former presidents, Bill Clinton and one of our current Presidential wannabees, Newt Gingrich as proof of that. I'm sure that other nationalities in the audience can come up with examples of their own. Wink

I do agree with Stuart that Senenmut probably gave her something that no other man did and I'm not talking dirty here. Officially, he was clearly her go to guy and no doubt very good at what he did. On a personal level, I wonder if she may have considered him, a man from an obscure family, on some level, safe. She had raised him to his high position, he was devoted to her and her daughter and apparently, according to his monuments to Thumose III as well. He had no important family, no children of his own and no list of ancestors (that we know of) dating back to previous dynasties. I've always thought that these two intended on some spirtual level, to be together in the afterlife. The recent article in KMT on Senenmut's tomb 353 lends weight to that theory. Maybe on a psychological level (and this really is speculation) he was the only man she ever met who came close to filling the sandals of her beloved father.
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LadyOsiris
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well said Naunacht Very Happy I agree somewhat...

Does seem to be a very scandalist and outragoues thing to do, having an affair with your courtier!

This image..

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/214/sennnnmutik2.jpg/sr=1

Is a very controversial piece of graffiti found beside the stele-shaped grafitto of Neferhotep on the eastern wall, depicting an erotic scene of two people participating in sexual intercourse... the women is believed to be wearing a pharaohs headress, which can be easily linked to Hatshepsut! Make sense to me that that the grafiiti is depicting Hathsepsut and Senenmut, Though could just merely be propaganda or rumours painted on to walls....Also it may not be Hatshepsut and Senenmut at all!

Also it may just be Hatshepsut... No connection to Senenmut at all!
Very little understanding about this grafitti and who it is...
Maybe the grafitti has no signifigance at all? Someone's fantasy? Is that Possible...?

All agree that Senenmut gave Hatshepsut something that no other man could (Not sexually)! Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great deal of scholarly ink has been spilled over that bit of ancient porn. Bottom line since we can't look into the mind of the person who drew it or his friends who probably stood around giggling as he did, its interpretation is pretty much up for grabs.

One of the things that seems to unite humanity is that we love gossip--especially when it involves the private lives of the rich and famous. I credit a history teacher with a rather dirty mind with getting me inspired as a sophmore in Catholic high school by telling us girls about the sexploits of historic figures--Catherine the Great took up most of a class. I don't think Mother Superior would have approved but this did take some of the figures out of the dry textbooks and give them life and got me interested in history. (The guy probably had an ulterior motive for sexing up his history classes. He was later fired for knocking up one of the students)

The problem is that if you focus on a historical figure's private life especially if it's a bit irregular, you can lose sight of who they really were and what they did. I think that's the problem with Senenmut, who's a pretty remarkable character even if you take away the thrill of a supposed affair with his female ruler.

He seems to have come from a middle class family. His father had no official titles but they were rich enough to provide their son an education.

He served in the military, probably under Thutmose I and received awards of gold for his service. Since the small standing army was frequently employed on building projects he may have gained a reputation as a construction overseer while in the army.

The first concrete sight of him is at Aswan, during the period when Hatshepsut was regent, where he was responsible for quarrying a pair of obelisks. These were either Hat's eastern obelisks or the pair ordered by Thutmose II and later erected by Hatshepsut. Either way they were much bigger than the pair quarried by Thutmose I a few years earlier. They may even have been bigger than Hatshepsut's 97 footer still standing in Karnak today.

Hatshepsut later named him steward of her properties and steward of the King's properties. He took over the position of Chief of All the Works of the King, and Overseer of the Granary of Amon probably from Ineni and that of tutor of Neferure from Ahmose Pen-Nekhbet. When Hatshepsut became King he was given the title Steward of Amon. This gave him direct control over the properties of Amon, the King and the God's Wife. This was one busy guy!

Judging from the famous "caricatures" of him whatever his relationship with Hatshepsut, he was no pretty boy. Large intense eyes, Bumpy nose, flaring nostrils, small mouth, somewhat weak chin and seriously wrinkled skin to the point that some have suggested some sort of tribal scarification seem to have been his most prominent features. Personality wise, he definately doesn't look like the sort of boss I'd want to have call me on the carpet for a mistake.

On a personal level he seems, as Meretseger pointed out, genuinely pious, devoted to his family and assuming that the burials found in the area of his tomb were part of his private cemetary, a generous master and even something of an animal lover. The burials include a monkey, which was not unusual and a horse which was. The horse was provided with an embroidered blanket which has been interpreted as a saddle pad.

He had no children--at least no sons and doesn't seem to have married but you have to be a bit cautious here. According to a 1999 article The Absent Spouse: Patterns and Taboos in Egyptian Tomb Decoration by Ann Macy Roth, officials who served female royals did not mention their wives in their tombs. Most of Hatshepsut's closest officials, including several who are known from other sources to have been married did not mention their wives in their tombs. For all we know he could have been happily married and just not in a position to put it down in his tomb.

He seems to have had a special relationship with both Neferure and Thutmose III. Thutmose III may have honored him after his death. Both lost their fathers at an early age and he may have helped fill the void.

He claims to have been a scholar and there's evidence that this was not an empty boast. Oddly enough, he never held the title of scribe--which almost any literate Egyptian--no matter how high he climbed--usually added to their list of accomplishments. He directly oversaw Hatshepsut's construction projects in the Theban area and was in overall charge of construction throughout the entire country. Did he personally design Deir el Bahri? We don't know, it was probably a team effort, but as the guy in overall charge, he must have had a good deal of input into the final product as did the King herself. He seems to have been familiar with some of the more esoteric aspects of Egyptian religion. Some of his fumerary preperations seem to show an intention to connect himself magically with Hatshepsut in the afterlife. The recent article by Francisco J. Martin Valentin and Teresa Bedman in the Fall 2011 issue of KMT suggests that his Deir el Bahri tomb was not a tomb but a ceremonial space aligned very precisely (they measured with GPS) with the temple's Hathor chapel through a series of Wadjet eyes that lead into the sanctuary. That's pretty good surveying for someone working in 1500 BC, albeit a little creepy. I've probably seen too many horror movies but I could just imagine those eyes glowing....at any rate, if you get the chance, read the article for yourself.

At any rate, the man was much more than some matinee idol boy toy or on the other hand a Rasputin like character who preyed on the emotions of a lonely queen. If you take all of his accomplishments together you have a man who was a very capable administrator as well as a scholar, engineer, theologian (or was it magician--would the Egyptians even have made such a distinction?) possibly one of the greatest architects in history and maybe even a war hero yet we're fascinated by the guy's sex life--go figure.

Well, another way too long post and off topic as well.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting about queens' servants not mentioning their wives and children, I never heard that. Sounds very Elizabeth I and her favorites doesn't it? Speaking of E I Senenmut may have been Hatshepsut's Cecil rather than her Leicester.
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LadyOsiris
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes agreed! Very Happy Queen's not allwoing their servants to mention their wives and children in their tombs? I have not heard of it either! But it does make some sense ...
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