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first king's son of Amun

 
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:15 am    Post subject: first king's son of Amun Reply with quote

After some questions about titles:

Very Happy OK I have one that puzzles me:

In the list of Theban tombs there's this one:
397. Nakht, first king's son of Amun


What is a "first king's son of Amun"????

The First King's Son usually means literally that this person is the eldest son of the King, but when you put the "of Amun" after it I have no idea what this means.

Any ideas?
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Heqakhepera
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is a title of religious affiliaton - like saying, "This is John, the first child by the grace of god".

It is a phrase recognizing the king's (and his children's) divinty.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That might be a possibility. The reference to Amon does put it in the realm of religious titles it appears.
I can't remember ever seeing that title anywhere else.

There's the "King's Son of Kush" which is a high administrative post in Kush (not really a relative of the King, let alone a son), so it could also be an administrative post in the Amon priesthood. But again, I had never seen this title before.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought on this 'first kings son of Amun'.
Assuming for a moment that he was an actual son of the king, could it be a title of sorts for a son of a Gods Wife of Amun?
Only thing though, since he's dated at the 18th Dynasty - who's son would he have been? Confused
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting one. "First King's Son of Amun" probably has nothing to do with the God's Wife of Amun, as this title went to a favorite daughter of the reigning pharaoh and was as much political as religious--a way for pharaoh to maintain control of the very powerful and wealthy Temple of Amun and its priests. One of the strictest rules for the so-called God's Wife was virginity and lifelong celibacy, which is why the tradition developed for the God's Wife to adopt a daughter of the next king to take her place when she died.

I couldn't find any references to flesh out the precise meaning of First King's Son of Amun, so I'll have to follow my intuition. As the crown prince was of course the king's son who was meant to succeed to the throne, the title of King's Son of Amun may have gone to another favorite son as a political move at the Temple of Amun, similar in concept to God's Wife of Amun--another way to seat a member of the royal house in Egypt's greatest and most powerful temple. This individual may not have even been the true son of a king; we know of numerous instances in which the title King's Son was honorific and not literal.

That's my own long-winded guess. Anyone know anything of firmer validity? I'd love to know what the title truly means.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
This is an interesting one. "First King's Son of Amun" probably has nothing to do with the God's Wife of Amun, as this title went to a favorite daughter of the reigning pharaoh and was as much political as religious--a way for pharaoh to maintain control of the very powerful and wealthy Temple of Amun and its priests. One of the strictest rules for the so-called God's Wife was virginity and lifelong celibacy, which is why the tradition developed for the God's Wife to adopt a daughter of the next king to take her place when she died.

Your description of the God's wife fits with the position in later times (past 20th dynasty if I remember correctly).
In the 18th dynasty the God's Wife of Amun was not the celibate daughetr of the King. One of the first ones to hold that title was Ahmose-Nefertari, and she had a son already when she was given the title.

I can't remember the list of names of the 18th dynasty God's Wives but they include Ahmose-Nefertari, Hatshepsut and ehr daughter Neferure as well as some other hagh ranking royal women.

kmt_sesh wrote:
I couldn't find any references to flesh out the precise meaning of First King's Son of Amun, so I'll have to follow my intuition. As the crown prince was of course the king's son who was meant to succeed to the throne, the title of King's Son of Amun may have gone to another favorite son as a political move at the Temple of Amun, similar in concept to God's Wife of Amun--another way to seat a member of the royal house in Egypt's greatest and most powerful temple. This individual may not have even been the true son of a king; we know of numerous instances in which the title King's Son was honorific and not literal.

That's my own long-winded guess. Anyone know anything of firmer validity? I'd love to know what the title truly means.


I don't know when this person lived (early, middle or late 18th dynasty).
It's tomb 397 in Thebes.

Is it at all possible that his name was longer than we think??
What I mean is the following: Instead of Nakht, King's son of Amun
could he have a long name Nakht- ??-Siamun
I don't know what "King" would be in the middle of the name.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're of course right about the earlier status of the God's Wife. I stand corrected, and thank you.

As far as the name goes, Nakht (an ancient Egyptian word meaning "strong" or "strength" or "mighty") was about as common as today's Joe or John or Bob. A common variation is Nakhti, which we would translate literally as "Man of Strength." If this person truly was of royal blood, he may very well have had a longer name incorporating that of his father's, or another name, and in life was most commonly called Nakht. There are numerous Nakhts in this necropolis, and I simply have come across no information that specifies whether our Nakht was truly of royal blood. Like I mentioned, any title incorporating "King's Son" could very well be honorific.

I just came across a source that lists this particular Nakht as a priest. Here's the link I used to find it:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=sbc-web&tab=&p=Tomb+397+Thebes

It's a Yahoo search page, and the link I'm talking about is #5 on the page. It's a PDF (if you're interested) and talks about numerous Nakhts of the Theban necropolis. Nakht of Tomb 397 is mentioned only in passing, I'm afraid, but it's an interesting article.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Thanks for looking that up.

I had actually just read the same article and realized I had seen it before when researching some information about Nakhtmin (general during Tut's reign)
This person's thesis that the Book of the Dead's Nakht may be this Nakhtmin I found really interesting. There are some who think this Nakhtmin may be Aye's son.
Aiden Dodson wrote an article in the Amarna Letters about the two crownprinces who never ruled Amenhotep's son Thutmosis, and possibly Aye's son Nakhtmin). He made the case that Nakhtmin may have died during his father Aye's rule.
But that's another topic.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Great link on the Nakht's and Nakhtmin, thanks for posting that. Always fascinating to read more on the Akhmin family.

Just yet another thought along the line of the Gods Wife. The title seems to have gone to the priesthood after Tiaa or possibly Mutemwia (uncertain as to whether or not she was a Gods Wife), so perhaps this Priest Nakhtmin was an offspring of a union between a high ranking priestess and the current king. Not royal enough for a tomb in the Valley of the Kings, but amongst other princes and high nobility.
As we know at the earlier part of the 18th Dyn the title Gods Wife was one for the foremost of the country's female, perhaps when the title seems to reduce in power (Amun iconoclasm? ) the holder was still in touch with the king - included into the royal harem?
Amenhotep III is depicted at Luxor with a Gods Wife, he makes offerings, she follows a priest. Amenhotep III is well known for his vast harem.
My unfounded speculation is perhaps the title Kings first son of Amun is given to the son of a king and a 'non royal' Gods Wife.

Ok, feel free to pick that waffle to pieces Laughing
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to wonder if the title may be a variation on the "First Prophet of Amun" title.
As mentioned above, Nakht seems to fit in with the priesthood. Is actually listed as a priest by some sources.
This would make him a high-priest of Amun (Provided I'm not completely off my rocker of course Cool )

It is interesting that Nakhtmin (son of Aye?) was labeled First King's son of [.....] on a statue of his.
Usually people argue that he is listed as First King's son of [his body] as opposed to First King's son of [Kush].

Maybe he was First King's son of [Amun]??
There were other high priests in the immediate family of Aye (assuming he's related to Yuya, Tuya and the rest of the Akhmin clan).

Aye restored the worship of Amun, but I've never heard who was made high priest.

Okay, that was my turn at speculative ideas Laughing
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