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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell me more, first I can recall reading about this.

KV35YL being Meritaten doesn’t work if KV55 is Akhenaten. Meritaten is attested multiple times as born of Nefertiti. The identification of KV21B as Nefertiti also goes against KV35YL being Meritaten.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Tell me more, first I can recall reading about this.

KV35YL being Meritaten doesn’t work if KV55 is Akhenaten. Meritaten is attested multiple times as born of Nefertiti. The identification of KV21B as Nefertiti also goes against KV35YL being Meritaten.


You can’t remember reading more about what exactly? The Nebkheperenre Son of Merytre? If, so, I can’t tell you much more at all. I think it is mentioned in a foot note of a book by Eaton-Kraus (???). Mentioned, and dismissed. Luca over at Historum brought up a scarab (I think) with it on. A certain pundit over at Historum (absolutely NOT Luca) pointed me to this ‘evidence’. I can’t find out more. But I presume it was discussed and explained somewhere. Look up on google ‘Nebkhkherenre son of Merytre, Historum Forum.’ I think it will come up. You can read our discussions there.

As to Meritaten being KV35YL. (And I do not claim she is, just examine the plausibilities and implausibilities).

1. Amenoohis III and daughter = produce Tut.
2. Akhenaten and daughter (Meritaten) = produce Tut.

Re: 2.... Akhenaten and sister = produce daughter (Meritaten). Akhenaten and Meritaten = produce Tut: see 2.

KV21A and B are unknown females. Any belief in them being Nefertiti and Ankhsenamun are just that: belief. If I was going to do imaginative leaps, I might opt they are Meritaten and Ankhsenamun. Or, maybe, secondary wives. Or...well...enough leaping just now, I think. 🙂

If Akhenaten is KV55mummy (I make no secret that I think he is, as you know), then, if he cannot be grandfather of the foetuses (via a daughter of his), then neither mummy can be his daughter (or sister, don’t know? 🤔)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If KV55 is Akhenaten, then for KV35YL to be Meritaten would need her to be both daughter and sister of Akhenaten. The German TV show "Dark" has complications like this, but via time travel.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
If KV55 is Akhenaten, then for KV35YL to be Meritaten would need her to be both daughter and sister of Akhenaten. The German TV show "Dark" has complications like this, but via time travel.


Would you like to think that out a little more. 😎
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
If KV55 is Akhenaten, then for KV35YL to be Meritaten would need her to be both daughter and sister of Akhenaten. The German TV show "Dark" has complications like this, but via time travel.


Msybe better still, explain why you come to that conclusion... 😎
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:


You can’t remember reading more about what exactly? The Nebkheperenre Son of Merytre? If, so, I can’t tell you much more at all. I think it is mentioned in a foot note of a book by Eaton-Kraus (???). Mentioned, and dismissed. Luca over at Historum brought up a scarab (I think) with it on. A certain pundit over at Historum (absolutely NOT Luca) pointed me to this ‘evidence’. I can’t find out more. But I presume it was discussed and explained somewhere. Look up on google ‘Nebkhkherenre son of Merytre, Historum Forum.’ I think it will come up. You can read our discussions there.

As to Meritaten being KV35YL. (And I do not claim she is, just examine the plausibilities and implausibilities).

1. Amenoohis III and daughter = produce Tut.
2. Akhenaten and daughter (Meritaten) = produce Tut.



Thank you, I found the thread, not sure what there is to it but it if Meritaten is Tut's mother KV55 can't be Akhenaten according to DNA, unless most of the other mummies are mis-identified, which seems unlikely due to the Elder Lady's DNA coming from two sources, one named as being hers (the hair).

Amenhotep III and a daughter producing Tut is possible, but we have to take into account his much closer relationship to KV55. Meritaten can't be the mother of Tut unless Nefertiti was also a full sister of KV55, and this would discount KV21B being Nefertiti.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Ayrton wrote:


You can’t remember reading more about what exactly? The Nebkheperenre Son of Merytre? If, so, I can’t tell you much more at all. I think it is mentioned in a foot note of a book by Eaton-Kraus (???). Mentioned, and dismissed. Luca over at Historum brought up a scarab (I think) with it on. A certain pundit over at Historum (absolutely NOT Luca) pointed me to this ‘evidence’. I can’t find out more. But I presume it was discussed and explained somewhere. Look up on google ‘Nebkhkherenre son of Merytre, Historum Forum.’ I think it will come up. You can read our discussions there.

As to Meritaten being KV35YL. (And I do not claim she is, just examine the plausibilities and implausibilities).

1. Amenoohis III and daughter = produce Tut.
2. Akhenaten and daughter (Meritaten) = produce Tut.



Thank you, I found the thread, not sure what there is to it but it if Meritaten is Tut's mother KV55 can't be Akhenaten according to DNA, unless most of the other mummies are mis-identified, which seems unlikely due to the Elder Lady's DNA coming from two sources, one named as being hers (the hair).

Amenhotep III and a daughter producing Tut is possible, but we have to take into account his much closer relationship to KV55. Meritaten can't be the mother of Tut unless Nefertiti was also a full sister of KV55, and this would discount KV21B being Nefertiti.


If we can confirm KV21A is Ankhsenamun, then perhaps we can entertain the idea KV55mummy is not Akhenaten. I straight out think he is. So KV21A is not Ankhsenanum.

Her identification, as far as I can tell works like this: Tut was married to Ankhsenaum, so the foetuses in KV62, being Tuts foetuses, must have been produced by Ankhsenamun. But Tut had a harim. Ankhsenamun should not instantly be thought the only candidate to produce foetuses fur Tut. Especially, as the evidence that does exist points clearly at Akhenaten as KV55mummy IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
karnsculpture wrote:
Ayrton wrote:


You can’t remember reading more about what exactly? The Nebkheperenre Son of Merytre? If, so, I can’t tell you much more at all. I think it is mentioned in a foot note of a book by Eaton-Kraus (???). Mentioned, and dismissed. Luca over at Historum brought up a scarab (I think) with it on. A certain pundit over at Historum (absolutely NOT Luca) pointed me to this ‘evidence’. I can’t find out more. But I presume it was discussed and explained somewhere. Look up on google ‘Nebkhkherenre son of Merytre, Historum Forum.’ I think it will come up. You can read our discussions there.

As to Meritaten being KV35YL. (And I do not claim she is, just examine the plausibilities and implausibilities).

1. Amenoohis III and daughter = produce Tut.
2. Akhenaten and daughter (Meritaten) = produce Tut.



Thank you, I found the thread, not sure what there is to it but it if Meritaten is Tut's mother KV55 can't be Akhenaten according to DNA, unless most of the other mummies are mis-identified, which seems unlikely due to the Elder Lady's DNA coming from two sources, one named as being hers (the hair).

Amenhotep III and a daughter producing Tut is possible, but we have to take into account his much closer relationship to KV55. Meritaten can't be the mother of Tut unless Nefertiti was also a full sister of KV55, and this would discount KV21B being Nefertiti.


If we can confirm KV21A is Ankhsenamun, then perhaps we can entertain the idea KV55mummy is not Akhenaten. I straight out think he is. So KV21A is not Ankhsenanum.

Her identification, as far as I can tell works like this: Tut was married to Ankhsenaum, so the foetuses in KV62, being Tuts foetuses, must have been produced by Ankhsenamun. But Tut had a harim. Ankhsenamun should not instantly be thought the only candidate to produce foetuses fur Tut. Especially, as the evidence that does exist points clearly at Akhenaten as KV55mummy IMO.


Second time I have quoted this. Missed a point.

I am suggesting that it is plausible Akhenaten and his full sister produced Meritaten. So, the sister in question would be Nefertiti, if Meritaten is mother of Tut (and Akhenaten Father).

I would like to know more about Nebkheperenre son of Merytre to see if his existence supports the proposition (he is Tut) or is unrelated (he is not Tut). For me, Nebkheperenre, son of Merytre, cannot be removed from the equation until I see why he logically should be.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Wikipedia page: Ankhsenamun.

“DNA testing announced in February 2010 has speculated that her mummy is one of two 18th Dynasty queens recovered from KV21 in the Valley of the Kings.[13]

The two fetuses found buried with Tutankhamun have been proven to be his children, and the current theory is Ankhesenamun is their mother. Not enough DNA was able to be retrieved from the mummies in KV21 to make positive identities of the queens. Enough DNA was pulled to show that the mummy known as KV21a fits as the mother of the two fetuses in Tutankhamun's tomb.[13] The assumption that she is Ankhesenamun fit with her being the only known wife of Tutankhamun in the historical record.

There is however one problem with this identification: if KV21a is Ankhesenamun, then the KV55 mummy probably is not Akhenaten, known to be her father from historical records. The DNA retrieved of the KV21a mummy fits with her being the mother of the fetuses, but not the daughter of KV55. Therefore:

this mummy is not Ankhesenamun, but another, unknown wife of Tutankhamun, or
the KV55 mummy is not Akhenaten, but another brother of his, possibly the ephemeral Smenkhare, or
the KV55 mummy is Akhenaten and KV21a is Ankhesenamun, but he was not the biological father of his daughter.
Nevertheless, the KV21a mummy has DNA consistent with the 18th dynasty royal line, therefore making it likely she was a member of the Thutmoside ruling house and supporting her identification with Ankhesenamun.”

A few particular points of interest (to me).

‘The assumption that she is Ankhesenamun fit with her being the only known wife of Tutankhamun in the historical record.“ key word: assumption.

‘Not enough DNA was able to be retrieved from the mummies in KV21 to make positive identities of the queens.’ Do, basically, she is ‘unidentified’.

‘Nevertheless, the KV21a mummy has DNA consistent with the 18th dynasty royal line, therefore making it likely she was a member of the Thutmoside ruling house and supporting her identification with Amkgsenamun’. Or likely she was s member of the Tnutmossides, so, therefore, supporting herbidentifucation as a family member who wasn’t Ankhsenamun.

‘The DNA retrieved of the KV21a mummy fits with her being the mother of the fetuses,...’ What does ‘fits’ mean? We can’t exclude her as mother, but can’t confirm her as mother.’?

Not much DNA extracted, but enough to ‘hope’ she is Ankhsenamun .....because Ankhsenamun was Tuts wife.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
Ikon wrote:
If KV55 is Akhenaten, then for KV35YL to be Meritaten would need her to be both daughter and sister of Akhenaten. The German TV show "Dark" has complications like this, but via time travel.


Msybe better still, explain why you come to that conclusion... 😎

By the epigraphic evidence, Meritaten is the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. By the DNA evidence, KV35YL is the daughter of Amunhotep III and Tiye, and full sister to KV55. Therefore, if KV35YL were to be Meritaten, how can she be both full sister to KV55 and also daughter, if KV55 is Akhenaten. On my reckoning, KV35YL cannot be Meritaten if KV55 is Akhenaten, and KV55 cannot be Akhenaten if KV35YL is Meritaten.

However, Beketaten, with a known mother, Tiye, but no positively identified father, could be a sister and daughter of Ankhenaten if she were the product of an incestuous relationship between Akhenaten and Tiye. The strong epigraphic evidence for Meritaten being the daughter of Ankhenaten and Nefertiti preclude there being a situation the same as for Beketaten, even if only conjecture. I'm sure a DNA expert could say what we can or cannot tell in these close familial relationships.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“I'm sure a DNA expert could say what we can or cannot tell in these close familial relationships.”

So we just cannot say that KV55mummy is not father of KV55mummy... incest, rife in the family, may be th3 key word here.

And I think you may be the first person I have ever read who says categorically that Tiye is mother of Beketaten. 😎
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well we know that Beketaten is a king's daughter as that is how she is named in the depictions of her. That title would take precedence over being daughter of a queen, so no need to describe her as daughter of Tiye. That she is shown in those scenes with Tiye and not Akhenaten and Nefertiti strongly indicate that she is the daughter of Tiye.

If Meritaten was KV35YL, and so the full sister of KV55, and if KV55 is Akhenaten, how can she also be his daughter by Nefertiti, something not in doubt. KV35YL cannot be any of the named daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, and can only be both sister and daughter if she is a daughter of Tiye by Akhenaten. Nobody suggests this as it holds no water, but it is suggested of Beketaten. This does not make Beketaten KV35YL, it only puts her in the frame to be so above all of the daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

In the first instance KV35YL is a daughter of AIII and Tiye, thus precluding her from being Meritaten, the only one of his daughters by Nefertiti who would have been old enough, just, to bear Tutankhaten around year 12 or 13. Genetically, and age wise, Beketaten fits the bill, as does Nebetah possibly, with Sitamun, IMO, and as exhaustively argued on that other forum, to old to be KV35YL. All that is left is the debate over the parentage of Nefertiti and is she a full sister of Akhenaten, something widely believed, but not by me, or we have as KV35YL a person whose name has not survived.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
Well we know that Beketaten is a king's daughter as that is how she is named in the depictions of her. That title would take precedence over being daughter of a queen, so no need to describe her as daughter of Tiye. That she is shown in those scenes with Tiye and not Akhenaten and Nefertiti strongly indicate that she is the daughter of Tiye.

If Meritaten was KV35YL, and so the full sister of KV55, and if KV55 is Akhenaten, how can she also be his daughter by Nefertiti, something not in doubt. KV35YL cannot be any of the named daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, and can only be both sister and daughter if she is a daughter of Tiye by Akhenaten. Nobody suggests this as it holds no water, but it is suggested of Beketaten. This does not make Beketaten KV35YL, it only puts her in the frame to be so above all of the daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

In the first instance KV35YL is a daughter of AIII and Tiye, thus precluding her from being Meritaten, the only one of his daughters by Nefertiti who would have been old enough, just, to bear Tutankhaten around year 12 or 13. Genetically, and age wise, Beketaten fits the bill, as does Nebetah possibly, with Sitamun, IMO, and as exhaustively argued on that other forum, to old to be KV35YL. All that is left is the debate over the parentage of Nefertiti and is she a full sister of Akhenaten, something widely believed, but not by me, or we have as KV35YL a person whose name has not survived.


Paragraph 1: I think Beketaten is very likely daughter of AIII and Tiye. But this is not quite as prescriptive as saying ‘known’ Mother. I was just curious about your certitude on this. ‘Strongly indicate” is a more apt terminology. I thought absolute proofs had come to light when you said ‘known”. Not a problem.

Paragraph 2: Hopefully, I have always made it clear that I think Meritaten is Skhenatens daughter. So if KV35YL is Meritaten, then she is not Akhenaten’s sister, she is his daughter. As my limited understanding of the DNA allows me, I think if Akhenaten and Nefertiti are full siblings, then Meritaten may have enough DNA to be mother of Tut with her own father as the father of Tut. I have made this case many times in the past on another forum. The case may not be closed, I know, but it amazes me me you are not aware of my basic proposition here. I’d laugh but I’m too busy crying. In frustration that is. And I still hold Beketaten (and Nefertiti and Meritaten) as suspects. One of my key questions is, can we exclude Nebkheperenr, son of Merytre as being Tut. I have been told he ‘just isn’t’ but I am expected to accept this without seeing evidence and argumentation involved in dismissing the proposition. It may well be absolutely correct to dismiss the thought that Nebkheperenre is Tut, but I don’t trust anything until I know all the fact she and reasoning. Old work habit. It saved me from ever being embarrassed in the witness box when presenting briefs of evidence to court. I would note: there are experts in the field who think KV35YL is Meritaten. Gabolde for one. Irrespective of his pathway and reasoning for that, the Nebkheperenre as Tut is as likely as not to support his theory if he is right, IMO. It’s at least worth clearing up. If only so all potential boxes are ticked. If you like, doing your investigation with thoroughness.

Paragraph 3: In a nutshell, the case is not closed. And we are free to believe what we believe. For me, any of AIII and Tiye’s daughters are suspects. But any other female with plenty of incestuous Thutmosside blood might be considered as well. That might include cousins or daughters, as far as I know.
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