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Dr. C. Pusch, German human geneticist to DNA investigations
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Lutz - just a little joke of mine. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With 'incest' involved in the samples (which I read somewhere might have a distorting effect on DNA tests), could (1) KV55 mummy be Tutankhamen's 'brother' - not his Father?; (2) KV55 mummy be Younger Lady KV35's Father - not her brother?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
anneke wrote:
... I had read some information that the mummy of Ramesses III showed a deep cut in his neck.

I form this info. originates from a television broadcast?

Greetings, Lutz.


David Moyer in his KMT column discusses a show on the Science Channel (shown in November, 2011) "Rameses III: Mummy King Mystery" about the so-called "Harem Conspiracy" against Rameses III, instigated by Queen Iset, a secondary wife, to put her son, Prince Pentaweret on the throne.

In the column, David Moyer mentions a recent CT-scan of Rameses III that shows that Rameses III"s throat was slit -- I can't tell if this info was in the show or not.

Moyer did say, "The even bigger revelation (in this reporter's opinion) in this excellent show was that DNA samples from a mummy called "unknown Man E," found in the DB320 Royal Mummies Cache, and the mummy of Rameses III would seem to prove (if the DNA is reliable) that "unknown Man E" is, in fact, Pentaweret, Rameses's son."

Moyer didn't cite a source for his dna data.

Reference: David Moyer, For the Record, KMT, Volume 23, Number 1, Spring 2012.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I described the show and the findings they mentioned here:
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5919
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waenre wrote:

David Moyer in his KMT column discusses a show on the Science Channel (shown in November, 2011) "Rameses III: Mummy King Mystery" about the so-called "Harem Conspiracy" against Rameses III, instigated by Queen Iset, a secondary wife, to put her son, Prince Pentaweret on the throne.

In the column, David Moyer mentions a recent CT-scan of Rameses III that shows that Rameses III"s throat was slit -- I can't tell if this info was in the show or not.

Moyer did say, "The even bigger revelation (in this reporter's opinion) in this excellent show was that DNA samples from a mummy called "unknown Man E," found in the DB320 Royal Mummies Cache, and the mummy of Rameses III would seem to prove (if the DNA is reliable) that "unknown Man E" is, in fact, Pentaweret, Rameses's son."

Moyer didn't cite a source for his dna data.

Reference: David Moyer, For the Record, KMT, Volume 23, Number 1, Spring 2012.

waenre


And all this time I felt inclined to poo-poo Bob Brier's theory about Pentaweret. I am happy to eat crow, in this instance. This is very interesting stuff.

I wish I had caught that program on the Science Channel.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were DNA tests done on the 'boy' mummy in KV35 who was with The Older and Younger Lady? If so, can someone point me toward the 'findings', please... Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, they did not mention doing any tests on the boy from kv 35. it seems strange really, as a long running theory is he is prince thutmose, elder brother of akhenaten.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shame if they didn't. Sad
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At some point after the DNA test results had been published it was mentioned by someone from Hawass`s team that the KV35 boy had subsequently been tested.
And they had promised that they would still go deeper into the 18th dynasty and try to get complete data where this hadn`t been possible.
There is not a word about this though in Pusch`s interview.

Anyway, I gather that in order to positively proof Ramses III being the father of Unknown Man E they would have to have access to the supposed mother Queen Isis. Is her mummy known and available?

If not, the fathership of Ramses III is probably just suggested by their Y-DNA which would mean they could also be brothers, cousins and more of that sort.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
At some point after the DNA test results had been published it was mentioned by someone from Hawass`s team that the KV35 boy had subsequently been tested.
And they had promised that they would still go deeper into the 18th dynasty and try to get complete data where this hadn`t been possible.
There is not a word about this though in Pusch`s interview.

Anyway, I gather that in order to positively proof Ramses III being the father of Unknown Man E they would have to have access to the supposed mother Queen Isis. Is her mummy known and available?

If not, the fathership of Ramses III is probably just suggested by their Y-DNA which would mean they could also be brothers, cousins and more of that sort.


David Moyer mentions in his discussion that the conspiracy was discovered and the people punished. He states that Queen Iset was burned to death -- there'd be no mummy.

I wonder why the queen would be burned to death while the son was allowed to commit suicide?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waenre wrote:
Sothis wrote:
At some point after the DNA test results had been published it was mentioned by someone from Hawass`s team that the KV35 boy had subsequently been tested.
And they had promised that they would still go deeper into the 18th dynasty and try to get complete data where this hadn`t been possible.
There is not a word about this though in Pusch`s interview.

Anyway, I gather that in order to positively proof Ramses III being the father of Unknown Man E they would have to have access to the supposed mother Queen Isis. Is her mummy known and available?

If not, the fathership of Ramses III is probably just suggested by their Y-DNA which would mean they could also be brothers, cousins and more of that sort.


David Moyer mentions in his discussion that the conspiracy was discovered and the people punished. He states that Queen Iset was burned to death -- there'd be no mummy.

I wonder why the queen would be burned to death while the son was allowed to commit suicide?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Pentaweret's mother the secondary queen named Tiye? Or Teye, or whichever spelling one might prefer? Isis was the great wife of Ramesses III.

The principal source for the harem conspiracy is the Judicial Papyrus of Turin, and in his book Affairs and Scandals in Ancient Egypt, Pascal Vernus commits a chapter to this very sordid affair. I just checked through it a couple of times and saw no mention of the form of punishment that befell this queen. She is definitively mentioned in the papyrus, but her fate does not seem to be.

I think Moyer might be mistaken. While Pentaweret and others of special status were allowed to commit suicide, those not so fortunate were indeed executed. However, exactly how they were put to death is not even described. Rather, execution is described through periphrasis in terms such as "his punishment was caused to befall him."

If someone can provide more information on Tiye's fate, I'd be interested in learning about it. I don't see it described in the Judicial Papyrus of Turin. I imagine she, too, was allowed to commit suicide, but perhaps the fate of one so highly stationed in the court was considered best not put to paper?

Source: Vernus, Pascal, Affairs and Scandals in Ancient Egypt. Cornell University, 2003. Pages 108-120.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i find it rather interesting that the names and punishments of the individuals are kept low key, as if everyone diodn't know who was in on the plot anyway. idon't understand why the real names of the queen and her son were hidden, unless it it had to do with the succesion, like that queens younger son maybe would inherit after the legitimate heir?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i find it rather interesting that the names and punishments of the individuals are kept low key, as if everyone diodn't know who was in on the plot anyway. idon't understand why the real names of the queen and her son were hidden, unless it it had to do with the succesion, like that queens younger son maybe would inherit after the legitimate heir?


In the book I mentioned, Vernus describes how the names of many of the conspirators were deliberately changed to damn them even further. Evidently this was a common practice in jurisprudence at the state level. As one example I've always remembered, a man probably originally named Meryre (Beloved of Re) is instead preserved forever in the court records as Mesedsure (Hated by Re). That'll do it.

As for the details of execution, it seems the Egyptians were loathe to describe such things in detail--the shedding of Egyptian blood--even when it came to criminals deserving of it. The preamble to the Judicial Papyrus of Turin is a good example. Even if the conspiracy was successful and Ramesses III was indeed dead, he is described as setting forth a committee to investigate the conspiracy and carry out suitable punishments--while he himself washed his hands of the nasty business.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
waenre wrote:
Sothis wrote:
At some point after the DNA test results had been published it was mentioned by someone from Hawass`s team that the KV35 boy had subsequently been tested.
And they had promised that they would still go deeper into the 18th dynasty and try to get complete data where this hadn`t been possible.
There is not a word about this though in Pusch`s interview.

Anyway, I gather that in order to positively proof Ramses III being the father of Unknown Man E they would have to have access to the supposed mother Queen Isis. Is her mummy known and available?

If not, the fathership of Ramses III is probably just suggested by their Y-DNA which would mean they could also be brothers, cousins and more of that sort.


David Moyer mentions in his discussion that the conspiracy was discovered and the people punished. He states that Queen Iset was burned to death -- there'd be no mummy.

I wonder why the queen would be burned to death while the son was allowed to commit suicide?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Pentaweret's mother the secondary queen named Tiye? Or Teye, or whichever spelling one might prefer? Isis was the great wife of Ramesses III.

The principal source for the harem conspiracy is the Judicial Papyrus of Turin, and in his book Affairs and Scandals in Ancient Egypt, Pascal Vernus commits a chapter to this very sordid affair. I just checked through it a couple of times and saw no mention of the form of punishment that befell this queen. She is definitively mentioned in the papyrus, but her fate does not seem to be.

I think Moyer might be mistaken. While Pentaweret and others of special status were allowed to commit suicide, those not so fortunate were indeed executed. However, exactly how they were put to death is not even described. Rather, execution is described through periphrasis in terms such as "his punishment was caused to befall him."

If someone can provide more information on Tiye's fate, I'd be interested in learning about it. I don't see it described in the Judicial Papyrus of Turin. I imagine she, too, was allowed to commit suicide, but perhaps the fate of one so highly stationed in the court was considered best not put to paper?

Source: Vernus, Pascal, Affairs and Scandals in Ancient Egypt. Cornell University, 2003. Pages 108-120.


kmt-sesh,

You're right -- Queen Tiy was the mother of Pentawere (this is from Susan's Redford's book, The Harem Conspiracy) -- David Moyer reversed the queens' names in his column.

Moyer writes such interesting columns, and they tend to be long and full of good information -- I'm surprised at the length of them -- I can see how it'd be easy to make a mistake. (It's apparent I'm not a fact checker.)

The genealogy table is on page 48 of Susan Redford's book -- it's a good book, and I would recommend it.

If I remember correctly, Susan Redford thinks that the queen was burned as that was the punishment for high treason.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if we don`t have Pentawer`s mummy - I mean his mum - how could they have proven that he is Ramses III`s son?
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