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Dr. C. Pusch, German human geneticist to DNA investigations
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cormac mac airt
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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So if we don`t have Pentawer`s mummy - I mean his mum - how could they have proven that he is Ramses III`s son?


Y Chromosome DNA testing which is male lineage specific and therefore does not require knowing his mothers genetic makeup. Which is how they currently do paternity tests now.

cormac
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pentaweret is thought to be 'unkown man e' from the deir el bahri cache. he was buried in a shrunken sheep skin. sheep being an unclean animal in egyptian religion.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cormac mac airt wrote:
Quote:
So if we don`t have Pentawer`s mummy - I mean his mum - how could they have proven that he is Ramses III`s son?


Y Chromosome DNA testing which is male lineage specific and therefore does not require knowing his mothers genetic makeup. Which is how they currently do paternity tests now.

cormac


But this only shows if the two shared the same paternal lineage - they could be father and son, paternal cousins, uncle-nephew, granddad-grandson and so on.
Specific proof of fathership requires fingerprinting autosomal DNA from both fahther and mother.
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cormac mac airt
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
cormac mac airt wrote:
Quote:
So if we don`t have Pentawer`s mummy - I mean his mum - how could they have proven that he is Ramses III`s son?


Y Chromosome DNA testing which is male lineage specific and therefore does not require knowing his mothers genetic makeup. Which is how they currently do paternity tests now.

cormac


But this only shows if the two shared the same paternal lineage - they could be father and son, paternal cousins, uncle-nephew, granddad-grandson and so on.
Specific proof of fathership requires fingerprinting autosomal DNA from both fahther and mother.


I respectully disagree Sothis.

Quote:
In a standard DNA paternity test, the tested parties usually include a child, the alleged father, and the mother.

The mother’s participation in the paternity test helps to exclude half of the child’s DNA, leaving the other half for comparison with the alleged father’s DNA.

However, we can perform a paternity test without mother’s participation (called a 'motherless' test). A motherless test involves additional analysis, which our labs will perform for you without any additional charge.

Results are equally conclusive whether or not the mother participates. Motherless tests are guaranteed to have at least a 99.99% probability of paternity for inclusions and 100% for exclusion.


http://www.paternitylabcenter.com/

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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree, you can get reliable results without the mother's DNA being tested. we can even tell which brother fathered a child these days!! so i think as long as they could extract decent DNA, they could say 100% without the mother's if the king's are the sons of their predecesors. i mean, considering we don't have the mothers of most kings, they are still able to to test them.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an interview in German in an Austrian daily paper ("Kurier" - 22.05.2012, 10:10) with the current general director of the Egyptian Museum Cairo, Sayed Hassan. Here are some parts, maybe of interest:

Quote:
"... Vor der Revolution haben täglich an die 10.000 Besucher die berühmte Sammlung besucht, heute sind es an guten Tagen 2500. ...

Wie schaut es mit wissenschaftlichen Arbeiten im Museum aus? Vor einiger Zeit wurden DNA-Analysen an Königsmumien durchgeführt. Ist angesichts der instabilen Lage an die Fortsetzung der Arbeiten zu denken?

Wir mussten die Arbeiten stoppen – es ist zu unsicher. Vielleicht können wir nach den Wahlen weitermachen. Ich habe da einige Mumien aus Luxor im Sinn, die ich gerne herbringen würde, um Proben zu nehmen, DNA-Analysen und CT-Scans durchzuführen.

Derzeit stehen die Geräte also ungenutzt herum?

Ja, an manchen Tagen müssen wir das Museum früh schließen, weil es draußen so unruhig ist. Vielleicht nach den Wahlen ... für diese Art von Untersuchungen brauchen wir Ruhe – und Geld. Beides haben wir derzeit nicht. ...

Vieles soll ins Grand Museum ausgelagert werden. So es denn irgendwann fertig wird.

„Im Ägyptischen Museum sollen nur 8000 Stücke – wie am Anfang – bleiben“, sagt Sayed. Und ergänzt: „Vielleicht behalten wir die Stücke hier, mit denen das Museum eröffnet wurde. Etwa Statuen von Pharao Cheops, Ramses II., Kephrem. Die Mumien und der Schatz des Tutanchamun sollen jedenfalls ins Grand Museum.“


Quote:
"... Before the revolution, we had per day to 10,000 visitors, today it is a good day with 2500 ....

How it looks with scientific works from the museum? Some time ago, DNA tests were carried out on royal mummies. In view of the unstable situation on the continuation of the work to think?

We had to stop working - it is too unsafe. Maybe we can go after the presidential elections. I have some mummies from Luxor in my mind that I would like brought here to take samples, conduct DNA analyzes and CT scans.

Currently, the devices are also around unused?

Yes, some days we have to close the museum early because it is outside so restless. Maybe after the elections ... for this type of investigation we need silence - and money. Both we do not have at present. ...

Much will be outsourced to the Grand Museum, if it is ready for some time.

"In the Old Egyptian Museum stay only around 8,000 pieces - as in the beginning." says Sayed. He adds: "Maybe we keep the pieces here, which the museum was opened with. Some statues of Pharaoh Cheops, Ramses II, Kephrem. The [royal] mummys and the treasure of Tutankhamun will in any case go to the Grand Museum. "


Greetings, Lutz.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The work does not seem to have stopped completely as the initially quoted article shows though it was certainly delayed due to the changed situation.

Which mummies are in Luxor (Museum?) that Hassan has referred to?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the mummy identified as ramses I is in luxor i believe. and i think ahmose is as well. but that doesn't mean the mummies he is referring to are royal ones.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On which mummies he thinks he unfortunately is not saying in the article. But at first I would also think on Ahmose I and the "maybe" Ramses I at Luxor Museum:



(November 2004, selfmade.)

Maybe there are some more members of royal families in the storerooms of the SCA in Luxor who are from the Valley? Are not in the tomb of Horemheb at least remnants have been found which could possibly even be from this king?

Greetings, Lutz.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were remains in Horemheb`s tomb belonging to I think 4-6 individuals though I hardly believe that these disarticulated bones and skulls would be called mummies by anyone Confused

Still an examination could be interesting, in case they have not been "lost" like other remains.

BTW there is a good article on Horemheb`s royal tomb including its human remains on the Egyptological online magazine.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the mummy identified as ramses I by carbon dating is supposed to be from the 22nd dynasty. the bones from horemheb's tomb, cannot be proven as intrusive remains, but i should think that is more likely than a cache of royals.

there are quite a few caches i think to be identified. maybe they are referring to a cache of princesses mentioned in dodson and hilton?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C. N. Reeves : The Valley of the Kings - The decline of a royal necropolis. - [Studies in Egyptology]. - London : Kegan Paul International, 1990. - ISBN : 0-7103-0368-8. - XLIII, 374 p., on page 77:
Quote:
"... The entrance to the burial chamber (J) had also been closed with a wooden door. The chamber itself was chaotic, strewn with builders' debris and funerary material. 'In all directions broken figures of gods were lying, and two defaced statues of the king were overthrown beside the sarcophagus'. In the sarcophagus itself was 'a skull and a few bones of more than one person'. The lid, broken in antiquity and repaired by means of butterfly cramps, had been removed and lay on the ground. Beneath the sarcophagus were found 'six ... hollows in the rock', all but one containing wooden figures of deities.

In 'a little side chamber on the right' of the sarcophagus (Jb), Weigall noted 'two skulls and some broken bones lying in the corner. These appeared to be female ...'. The north-west side-chamber (Jaa) contained 'a fine painting of Osiris on the back wall; and, crouching at the foot of this, a statuette of a god with upraised hands had been placed ...'. In the floor of side-room Jd, 'a square hole was cut, leading down to a small room' (Jdd) containing 'a skull and a few bones again of more than one person`. ..."

Geoffrey T. Martin : Re-excavating KV 57 (Horemheb) in the Valley of the Kings (2008) :
Quote:
"... The sarcophagus, too, still demanded attention: skeletal material and other debris remained inside, and the lid, repaired and replaced in position after the discovery in 1908, was wrongly oriented. ... All this new evidence, in conjunction with the objects in the Cairo Museum and elsewhere, will enable a complete study of the equipment and skeletal material to be carried out, to compare and contrast with the near-contemporary deposit from the tomb of Tutankhamun."


Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
the mummy identified as ramses I by carbon dating is supposed to be from the 22nd dynasty. ...

Says who, where and why?

With some certainty Ramses I was reburied in DB 320. This is evidenced by remnants of his original coffin and at least one Docket (Reeves, VoK, 1990, p. 185 & Docket 11).

It is also undisputed that at least one mummy from DB 320 was sold by the Abd el-Rassuls (Reeves, VoK, 1990, p. 262 quote from Edwards : A Thousand Miles Up The Nile, 1877 & 1891, p. 451).

Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To complete the documents about the human remains from KV 57 - Horemheb ... From Elizabeth Thomas : The Royal Necropoleis of Thebes. - Princeton, 1966. - [Ninety Copys Printed]. - XII, 298 p., pages 95 - 96:



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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are many instances of mummies being found in caches with no burial equipment. and burial equipment found but without a mummy. so while there is godd evidence ramses I may have been in the cache, it does not mean he was.
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