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Climing pole in honor of the god Min
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Climing pole in honor of the god Min Reply with quote

Someone just asked a question related to this on EEF, but naked people climbed tent poles during a harvest festival???

Quote from wikipedia: "At the beginning of the harvest season, his image was taken out of the temple and brought to the fields in the festival of the departure of Min, when they blessed the harvest, and played games naked in his honour, the most important of these being the climbing of a huge (tent) pole."

Seriously?? Given the iconography of Min that's rather an amusing image Very Happy

Then again, maybe the very early beginnings of pole dancing?
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BobManske
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Anneke. Those of us who are rather well-endowed (I speak with all due modesty, of course, re. Min and his bashfulness) are divided in our responses - some look forward with apprehension, others with some eagerness - to the annual recurrence of May Day. Which may, I believe, be the spring event corresponding (and perhaps a descendant of) the ancient Min festival.

Bob
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL Had not thought about the maypole at all.

http://www.profimedia.si/picture/man-climbing-maypole/0006569952/
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All kidding aside, I was trying to find some info on JSTOR and found mention of a shnt pole. A pole is often associated it seems with deities.
The setting up of the pole of Min is mentioned in a temple in Saqqara from the time of Pepi II.

quote:
We know more of a pole of Min in this reign, for the setting up of one is sculptured in the temple of Pepi II at Sakkarah (Fig. 3) Unfortunately no inscription remains, but from the New Kingdom onwards the scene is well known, when it invariably belongs to Min or his counterpart, the ithyphallic Amun. The ceremony is regularly described as <glyphs appear in original text>, except once at Edfu, where the words <..> are replaced by the apparatus itself. This means either 'The Setting up of the Shnt (pole) of the Bull', the divine animal being written first out of respect, or it might mean 'The Setting up of the Bull of the ghnt (pole)', but in view of what has gone before it no doubt means 'The Setting up of the Bull, the .hnt (pole)'. The god would have been as immanent in his sacred pole as in his sacred bull, for deities are often represented by poles.

Isn't the "pole" with sometimes items attached a very old way of representing the gods? There is a specific term for this and the name is completely escaping me.
I mean the items held in the narmer palette the 4 people walking before the king and his companion

Although the image of the shnt pole shows something much larger.


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BobManske
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

http://www.profimedia.si/picture/man-climbing-maypole/0006569952/


That guy ain't naked! He's clearly an imposter or a pretender! How can we tell if he's a true practitioner of either Min or Maypole festivities? Perhaps the girls may swoon about the rest of his physique but as for the parts under discussion in this thread - they remain to be seen.

Although I can't see that there's anything in the picture that's better than me, my wife likes him.

Hmm.

Bob
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You posted about three seconds before I did, Anneke. Trying to turn the discussion back to seriousness. Shame on you! You know better than that when I'm around.

I think you're talking about a totem pole? Is that it?

Anyway, it's a great find. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Bob
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
... Isn't the "pole" with sometimes items attached a very old way of representing the gods? There is a specific term for this and the name is completely escaping me. ...

The word you are looking for is in German "Standarte" (banner ?), I think.

A compilation with explanations of all known scenes from this ritual, beginning with Pepi II in Saqqara up to Greek-Roman times offers

Frank Feder : Das Ritual "saha ka sehen.t" als Tempelfest des Gottes Min. - In: 4. Ägyptologische Tempeltagung - Köln, 10.-12. Oktober 1996 - Feste im Tempel - Akten der Ägyptologischen Tempeltagungen - 2. - Ägypten und Altes Testament - ÄAT - Studien zu Geschichte, Kultur und Religion Ägyptens und des Alten Testaments - 33. - Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1998. - ISBN : 3-447-04067-X. - ISSN : 0720-9061. - pp. 31 - 54.

Following Feder it is a ritual in form of a mystery play that possibly the arrival of the god Min and the establishment of its cult and chapel in Egypt describes. The climbers are therefore symbols for the south peoples those controlled by Min. They and over all their raw materials and recources will subordinate under Egypts rule by the god.

It belonged to the rituals with those the ruler its capability under proof places. In its first known representation from the times of Pepi II. it is part of a Sedfest.

The king repetitive in the mystery play the acts of the god Min, told in the myth, establishes the indication and thus also the cult chapel of the god in Egypt. He brings in the tradition of the god to the country and the temple the products in demand of the foreign countrys. If king and court are able to keep the bull symbol upright, they keep also control of the subjected peoples. The king repeats the acts of the gods descripted in the myths and creates again the worlds order (Maat) given by them.

Remains to mark, that the mythological interpretation mainly is based on the texts from Greek - Roman period.

Greetings, Lutz.

P.S.: Here is a good picture from one of the representations from Luxor-Tempel, taken in December 2003 by Dr. Karl Leser...



Luxor-Temple, right inside of the pylon by Ramses II., opposite the mosque.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
LOL Had not thought about the maypole at all.

http://www.profimedia.si/picture/man-climbing-maypole/0006569952/


Is he wearing...a bra???

I just can't picture Min in a bra.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:

The word you are looking for is in German "Standarte" (banner ?), I think.



Correct.

The whole unit can be a standard. Banner usually refers to the fabric hanging from it.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if were the poles greased Idea
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BobManske
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
Is he wearing...a bra???

I just can't picture Min in a bra.


No, we learned a while back on the Seinfeld show that when aged men wear this, it's called a "bro", not a "bra", the latter being, of course, the feminine version of the word.

Bob
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a jockstrap (xxxl, of course!) would me more appropriate.
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been researching the Poles in general. Often they are called the North Pole and the south Pole, and relate to the Pole stars, which appear at certain times, thus indicating changes in the seasons. There is a place where the pole indicates the joining / or the place where heaven and earth meet. Often called the Axis Mundi. A place of fertility- May pole, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi

Often in mythology, the people have to follow the Pole star, to find the pole , which is often the turning point ( change of seasons) from the descent into darkness ( winter) towards the light ( summer and harvest etc)

"center of the world), in religion or mythology, is the world center and/or the connection between Heaven and Earth. As the celestial pole and geographic pole, it expresses a point of connection between sky and earth where the four compass directions meet.[citation needed] At this point travel and correspondence is made between higher and lower realms.[1] Communication from lower realms may ascend to higher ones and blessings from higher realms may descend to lower ones and be disseminated to all.[2] The spot functions as the omphalos (navel), the world's point of beginning.[3][4]"
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
I have been researching the Poles in general. Often they are called the North Pole and the south Pole, and relate to the Pole stars, which appear at certain times, thus indicating changes in the seasons. There is a place where the pole indicates the joining / or the place where heaven and earth meet. Often called the Axis Mundi. A place of fertility- May pole, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi ...

Should be noted that neither in the illustrations or in the texts of the here discussed ritual for the god Min indications of such an interpretation can be found. Also the interpretation of the Egyptian pyramids in this way on the linked wiki-page can not be verified with ancient sources, I think. Sounds to me like numerology and New Age thinking ...

Lutz
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is the egyptian story where Shu Anhur lifts up the gardens and places into the garden of Arru.

AS such it is the place where the earth ( represented by the underworld which is a journey through the earth) and the heavens combine. It is where the solar barque emerges into the day from the night.
Gerald Masseys book goes into great detail
Here is a small part while not relating to the pole, A pole or spear can be found in most religions next to the mount. Such as the pole of Asherim. the spear that struck jesus, the Indians also have a spear that is thrown by Karthik, Thre is a section on the pole spear, in this book, but cannot find it at present will look later.
http://www.masseiana.org/aebk6.htm#376
"The Egyptian paradise of Hetep is mapped out in ten divine domains which correspond to a heaven in ten divisions. These ten divisions were lost, or superseded, like the ten islands of the lost Atalantis, when the zodiac of twelve signs was finally established. And naturally there would be ten populations lost, as in the Assyrian deluge. It follows that the ten tribes of Israel, who preceded the twelve, were lost at the same time and in the same way, the legend being one as astronomical, wheresoever met with in the märchen. There is a tradition that they will be found again in the Aarru-Hetep or Jerusalem above, the promised land which they attained at last. In the Ethiopic Conflict of Matthew it is said that the ten tribes 'feed on honey and drink of the dew.' 'The water we drink is not from springs, but from the leaves of trees growing in the gardens.'[266] These were they who passed in death like all the rest across the waters 'into a farther country where mankind never dwelt,' because it was in the spirit-world[267].

The 110th chapter of the Ritual suffices of itself to prove the Kamite origin of the mount of glory and the circumpolar paradise. This is the chapter of coming forth from the netherworld by day, or with the sun, and arriving in the garden of Aarru, on the mount of resurrection in Hetep, and at 'the grand domain, blest with the breezes.' This was the heaven lifted up by Shu of old as the summit of attainment. It is called 'the beautiful creation which he raiseth up,' the mansion of his stars which had been again and again renewed in the heaven of astronomy. In the eschatology it was the heaven of reconciliation, reunion, and of rest. It had been the heaven of Abydos, of Annu, Thebes, Memphis, Hermopolis, and other cities on earth, and now it was the heaven of eternity, the heaven of spirits perfected; also the heaven of Chaldean, Hebrew, Hindu, Japanese, Greek, and all the others who repeated the astronomical imagery and founded their religious reaching on the wisdom of ancient Egypt. The summit of Hetep was the seat of Hathor, queen of heaven and mother of fair love on earth. She who had drawn the world in offering her full breast as nurse to Horus now offered it upon the mount of glory to the weary spirits whom she gathered in her motherly embrace. She was also represented by those seven cows or meris, as the giver of plenty in the meadows of Aarru, so abundantly that the river called the Milky Way was as the overflowing plenitude from this perpetual source. On a tablet in the Louvre[268] this divine mother of gods and men is asked for 'the white liquor that the glorified ones love.' This is distinctly called milk upon a Florentine tablet (2567), and vases of her milk are mentioned in the Inscriptions of Denderah[269]. Hesit the cow is identified with Hathor the divine mother, the fair nurse, the mistress of heaven and sovereign of the gods. She was the cow-mother, and her child was the calf who became her bull as fertilizer. Hence the deceased as Horus in Hetep exclaims, 'I am the bull, raised on high in the blue, lord of the bull's field,'[270] whose cow or nourisher is Hesit[271]. [p.385] In this way the cow of heaven supplied not only milk for the infant Horus, but for all who were reborn as babes in the new life, and the heaven of plenty and of rest was tenderly pictured in the welling bosom of the motherhood, thus divinized upon the mount. When the departed have reached the summit of life upon the mount of spirits perfected, they emerge in the garden of Hetep or paradise of Aarru. Here they attain the land of promise in the highest sense of spiritual fulfilment. They eat of the fruit of the tree and drink the water of life, or the milk of the old first Great Mother, who yields it in the form of Hesit the cow: the ancient mother of gods and men to whom the Egyptians assigned a foremost station in the starry heavens. Here the beatified spirits who sat upon their thrones of ba-metal, 'raised on high in the blue,' among the never-setting stars, extended the hand of welcome to the coming generations of human beings. Three classes of human beings are recognized in the past, present, and future of existence: the Pait are those of the past, the Rekhit are the living, and the Hamemet are the future generations. In one of her inscriptions Queen Hatshepsut appeals to these latter as future witnesses to the glory of her present work. She says, 'I make this known to the Hamemet, who will live in times to come.'[272] The name denotes the unembodied, or, more literally, the un-mummied, from ha, before, and mem or mum, the mummy. These are the future beings to whom the glorified spirits extend their welcome in the garden of beginning and rebirth; and it is in this enclosure or paradise that we shall at last discover the garden on the summit of the mount in the north that has become a traditional cradle and creatory of life itself as the rebirth place of the glorified. It is said to Ra, who had become the highest god, 'Glory to thee upon the mount of glory. Hail to thee who purifiest and preparest the generations yet unborn, and to whom this great quarter of heaven offereth homage.'[273] This great quarter was the northern summit in the region of the two lakes of Sa and of Purification. The divine rebirth place of the soul constellated in the meskhen was converted by the later races, Asiatic, European, American, Polynesian, into the primeval place of human birth, from whence the successive migrations were supposed to have issued forth, because the localities and the scenery of earth had been substituted for those of the divine or mythical world of the Egyptian eschatology. The 'original Aryan home,' the Iranian paradise, the Semitic garden of Eden, the Greek elysian fields are each derived from the Egyptian Sekhet-hetep, the fields of peace and plenty, or the Sekhet Aarru, where amid the still waters are portrayed the islands of the blessed, the amaranthine meads and pastures ever green. When Assyriologists speak of Urdu the mountain of the world as the primitive cradle of the human race[274], they are oblivious of the fact that there are fifty or a hundred such cradles of the race. Hence over eighty different sites have been assigned to the garden of the beginning, called Edin or Eden by the Semites. The Akkadian urdhu is one with or corresponds to the Egyptian urtu, a name both for the ascent or mount and the thigh or haunch, as a figure of the birthplace, human or divine.
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