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Climing pole in honor of the god Min
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we go

"Vale of Shinar is a very important piece of evidence, since the Great Pyramid was known to Egyptians as MOUNT SHENNAI.

Gerald Massey:
"The journey from the lower Egypt of the mythos through the deserts of Amenta was from west to east, from the place of sunset to the point of sunrise which was called the solar mount of glory. At sunset Anhur-Shu upraised his mansion of the starry firmament which he uplifted nightly, standing on the steps of Am-Khemen. This presented a stellar picture of the upper Egypt or the upper [Page 660] paradise for which the wanderers in the wilderness were bound. At dawn the mount of sunrise in the garden eastward was attained. This was the mountain of Amenta, also called Shennu or Shenni=Sinai. Shena in Egyptian signifies the point of turning in the orbit of the solar course. This point was figured on the mountain where the lions rested as supporters of the solar disk at dawn, or Shu uplifted Ra from out the darkness of Amenta and held the orb aloft with his two hands. At this point Anhur’s place as leader of the chosen people was taken by his alter ego Shu. The Magic Papyrus describes the warrior-god as “king of upper and lower Egypt” in his two characters of Anhur and Shu-si-Ra. By night Shu-Anhur was the uplifter of the firmament for the Egyptian exodus or coming forth to day from out the darkness of Amenta or of “Egypt and the desert” (Rit., ch. 110). (See the figure of Shu as the uplifter, p. 315.) Under the name of Anhur he is the leader of the upper heaven, rod in hand. His starry image probably was seen as Regulus in the constellation of Kepheus, the ruler there, arrested with the rod or staff still lifted in his hand. He repels the crocodile or dragon coming out of the abyss, the crocodile that is the dragon of Egypt and the Pharaoh of the Hebrew writers. This repelling of the crocodiles that issue from the abyss corresponds to the overthrowal of Pharaoh or the dragon and his host in the Red Sea. Anhur is the lord of the scimitar. He is designated “smiting double horns”; “the god provided with the two horns”, like Moses. “Uplifted is the sky which he maintains with his two arms”, like Moses. This two-fold character of Anhur is indicated when he is described as “the king of upper and lower Egypt, Shu-si-Ra”. This was the Egypt of Amenta. Thus, as the king of lower Egypt he was Anhur the uplifter of the firmament for the chosen people to come forth. At daybreak he assumed the character of Shu, the son of Ra, who lifted up the solar disk at dawn on the horizon, otherwise upon the mount of sunrise.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A gentle word of warning, Aromagician. Gerald Massey styled himself as an Egyptologist but an Egyptologist he was not. If you're drawing a lot of your information from him, you're being led astray from what real, vetted historical research has to offer.

I'll be keeping an eye on this discussion. Let's go very, very light on the Massey stuff.

But if other posters are interested, please feel free to cite research establishing conventional thoughts on these matters.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, the whole has no relation to the here discussed ritual for the god Min (in my view, not to ancient Egypt in general). Contemporary Ancient Egyptian sources, please.

Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I presume most people tend to prefer to go for the standard Western Interpretation of any structure that protrudes upwards and call it a phallic symbol. End of discussion.

Not taking into account that Egyptians as a whole were interested in magic (Heka), they practiced it, and obviously had strong links with the afterlife.

How can you discuss religous rituals and symbols without trying to interpret what symbolic significance it has?
Everything must be taken into context of the other gods, the time period, the type of people and therefore its significance.
People just dont decide to climb a poled for the hell of it???
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
... How can you discuss religous rituals and symbols without trying to interpret what symbolic significance it has? ...

How can you discuss this rituals when you ignore the Ancient Egyptian sources?

Lutz
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Sobek101
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just to clarify for me, was Min that god with the huge boner? sorry if thats a bit coarse...
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sobek101 wrote:
just to clarify for me, was Min that god with the huge boner? sorry if thats a bit coarse...


In point of fact, as a primary fertility god, Min was the one with the biggest bon...

You know what I mean.

Not the only one, but the biggest. That's probably not true but you started it, Sobek101. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
Sobek101 wrote:
just to clarify for me, was Min that god with the huge boner? sorry if thats a bit coarse...


In point of fact, as a primary fertility god, Min was the one with the biggest bon...

You know what I mean.

Not the only one, but the biggest. That's probably not true but you started it, Sobek101. Twisted Evil


what did i do? Very Happy
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
Sobek101 wrote:
just to clarify for me, was Min that god with the huge boner? sorry if thats a bit coarse...


In point of fact, as a primary fertility god, Min was the one with the biggest bon...

Maybe this is meant with "... the Axis Mundi. A place of fertility ..." ?

Greetings, Lutz.
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually that is some of the imagery associated with the axis mundi. there is a mound ( which some say represent the Mother) and it is said that many of the earlier burials in ancient cultures were with high mounds.
A pole / spear is inserted, to link the earth ( the mother) with the heavens. Which can be seen as a symbol of the male energy. Sometimes there is lightning and thunder, which seems to unite with the pole( like a conducter of heavenly energy I suppose, to open the doors between heaven and earth.

And of course, not only death but birth is a time when the " door " is opened. As new life comes in the same way that death goes out.
In Maori ancient songs, the death chant, has much the same words as the chant guiding the baby about to be born- showing the way for them to come in / depart .

So procreation is probably a precursor to the doorway opening, So would not be surprised if Min was part of that.

If they wanted just a Phallus, the EGyptians would have carved one and placed it at the door.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And furthermore, no connection to the here in this thread discussed ritual for the god Min, and in my view also no connection to Ancient Egypt religion generally. Once again : contemporary ancient Egyptian sources and proofs, please.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you also like to tell me which sources you approve of Lutz? Which writers? As I would not like to have to disappoint you with original thinking outside of your parameters Idea
Gasp to think I may be finding comparisons with other cultures all by myself.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
Would you also like to tell me which sources you approve of Lutz? ...

I still did, but here once again : Contemporary Ancient Egyptian sources, please. The here in this thread discussed ancient Egyptian ritual for the god Min is known to us several times since Pepi II. from representations in relief and also from some inscriptions. They have to be the basic for every interpretation, not the songs of the Maori.

And, by the way, I do not think you're the right person to assess my "pararmeters".

Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't speak for Lutz but I imagine he and I would agree on any number of sources—so long as they pertain to professional research into the religion and rituals of pharaonic Egypt. "Thinking outside of your parameters" can be a useful research tactic, so long as you don't allow it to take you astray.

All that matters is what the Egyptians themselves left for us to read and discern and understand. And they left us a hell of a lot. When we stray beyond the extant evidence, our conclusions are likely to be not only unreliable but just plain wrong.

Your post about axis mundi and the Maori, for example, doesn't have anything to do with pharaonic religion and rituals.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps where we diverge, is that I am interested in the consciousness of ancient peoples, more like anthropolgy I suppose.
An anthropologist can study a culture, their drawings, their gods, and make statements such as " the Egyptians believed they had a God with a hawk head".

Yet when he participates in their ritual, perhaps using Blue lotus, he may actually see and experience the world where the hawk god lives, and talk to him directly. Such as the people of the Amazon that take Ayahausca.

I did not realise that this forum was not intended to discuss symbols and metaphors in consciousness in regards to the Egyptians, and their relevant interpretations. Why do I compare it to other culture? As the mind or the unconsscious ( whre religous visions manifest) , if one researches it sufficiently, seems to produce similar metaphorical symbols amongst many cultures. Such as suggested by the works of Erich Nuhman and Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. But maybe psychological interpretations of Ancient Egyptian symbols is not appropriate here either? Is that what I am to take by these comments? Or are they your personal comments and I can continue ?
The name Egyptian Dreams would suggest that this forum would encompass such a viewpoint?

How can you understand what was meant , or how the symbols used influenced the people at the time without exploring that subject. Otherwise you are merely looking at them through a plate of glass, observing without understanding their ramifications.
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